Alloycars Aluminum Bodied FORUM Project

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by Buzz

They are based in part on scans of an original car but there are some deviations in the proportions. Its a good car but not the most accurate in appearance.

I have scans already from an original CSX3000 series but before I got wheelbase information between both cars I cant say if there will be some mods.

[mrmustang]

Forgot to add, there are no shims or spacers used, the aluminum body is hand wrapped and hand fitted to each chassis, since each chassis has it's own minor deformations due to production techniques used to build them one at a time.


Bill S.

[Alloycars]

We already solved the issue for the supported subframe holding the body adding/welding a proper one. Later I have to figure out if we can do a complete kit with an attachable frame in form to bolt it in or the possiblity to bring those cars to our shop. I prefer the first option by far.

[NewYorkGuy]

alloycars/Ingo

Have you considered a partnership with Dave Smith @ FFR to sell an alum body car?
he does the sales. U make the bodies.

also, i do not understand your business plan. Are u just making one-offs or do u want to be a steady supplier of alum bodies in the USA?

big picture is price: can u deliver a roller with an alum body for half the cost of a Kirkham roller ($90,000) ?

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

alloycars/Ingo

Have you considered a partnership with Dave Smith @ FFR to sell an alum body car?
he does the sales. U make the bodies.

also, i do not understand your business plan. Are u just making one-offs or do u want to be a steady supplier of alum bodies in the USA?

big picture is price: can u deliver a roller with an alum body for half the cost of a Kirkham roller ($90,000) ?

Actually we are selling cars, ready to drive and with an aluminum body starting under 85,000. They are based on MKIV.

Bodies? I have to make a conversion kit first and then I will know something about the price. I am still evaluation the whole situation as I still search for an "attachment" solution.

With FFR I have an agreement with Tony that we are going individually and we agreed that future customers can in fact buy kits from FFR without a bodies getting the respective discount. I cant build a high quantity like FFR as they are quick to built, at the other side I think we could produce 6-8 kits/month for sure. Lets see.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

With FFR I have an agreement with Tony that we are going individually and we agreed that future customers can in fact buy kits from FFR without a bodies getting the respective discount.

For clarification, who is "Tony"



Bill S.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

For clarification, who is "Tony"



Bill S.

I asked before on one of these threads, but where is FFR on this? Kirkham certainly weighed in. I would like to hear the FFR position straight from them sometime.

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

alloycars/Ingo

Have you considered a partnership with Dave Smith @ FFR to sell an alum body car?
he does the sales. U make the bodies.

also, i do not understand your business plan. Are u just making one-offs or do u want to be a steady supplier of alum bodies in the USA?

big picture is price: can u deliver a roller with an alum body for half the cost of a Kirkham roller ($90,000) ?

Actually we are selling cars, ready to drive and with an aluminum body starting under 85,000. They are based on MKIV.

Bodies? I have to make a conversion kit first and then I will know something about the price. I am still evaluation the whole situation as I still search for an "attachment" solution.

With FFR I have an agreement with Tony that we are going individually and we agreed that future customers can in fact buy kits from FFR without a bodies getting the respective discount. I cant build a high quantity like FFR as they are quick to built, at the other side I think we could produce 6-8 kits/month for sure. Lets see.

[ACademic]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

Actually we are selling cars, ready to drive and with an aluminum body starting under 85,000.

Are you describing turn-key or turn-key-minus? If the latter, then what's stopping someone from paying perhaps $5-10K more for a Kirkham roller, which not only comes with a proven record and spot-on accuracy but is also supported by professionals that constantly exhibit sound character?

Good luck with your builds and your business plan. I truly applaud your entrepreneural spirit...at least you have that going for you and I will follow the progress of this project if only to enhance personal knowledge.

[Buzz]

Can a body already attached to a birdcage/subframe that will bolt to existing or added mounting points on a basic FFR chassis be built?

EDIT - I think you just answered that

[Alloycars]

So let me understand. The MKIV body is in fact a copy from an original Cobra. Any reason why not using it?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

So let me understand. The MKIV body is in fact a copy from an original Cobra. Any reason why not using it?

As soon as the Mk IV (latest revision of the Roadster offering) came out, that is the body they have been using. Any of their "Red" fiberglass roadster bodies are based off that digitized scan of Dick Smiths #188 (CSX3035).


Where you will have issues in attempting a similar digitization of any other CSX2000 or CSX3000 series car is that each one was hand built, and hand formed to a chassis. As such, each one is different than the other, even if they were built side by side, by the same craftsman.

As mentioned above, this will be the same issue you have with using an FFR MKIV chassis, as each chassis has small differences from the next.

As for attempting to make a bolt on bird cage to mount to the current FFR MK IV chassis, a bolt on body and birdcage will never be as strong, or as safe as one that is welded on and properly mounted and supported.


Bill S.

[DanEC]

In my opinioin the MK IV FFR body is a reasonably authentic looking body although I can't imagine they didn't take a few liberties to adapt to their basic chassis platform. But, it's hard to get too critical when the originals were so variable and didn't even match from side to side.

Does the MK IV still have the pads under the front turnsignal lamps? Has anyone figured out what went wrong with the license plate and trunk handle interference? Also, if planning to go to the expense of a hand-formed aluminum body, please put the slight rocker panel bow at the very bottom to mimic original cars for those of us running under-car exhaust. The exact shape of the wheel openings could probably stand a little attention too.

The FFR chassis has a lot of upper bracing for the fiberglass body that would not work directly for riveting an aluminum body to and would be redundant. In my mind, there would almost have to be a frame adaption kit to replace some of the upper FFR structure with either a structure for riveting the body to - or to provide mounting points where the body with attached supporting structure could be bolted down.

This would all seem easier if there were some sort of formal partnership between Alloycars and FFR on this. Is that something being thought about? I may have missed in somewhere in all the fire, smoke and debris of the earlier threads.

My 2 cents

[LMH]

The MKIV FFR body is closer to the original SC/Comp body but it isn't an exact reproduction of 3035. Wheelbase is 90", as per original.
Larry

[twobjshelbys]

Is this a sustainable business model? Figure your TAM (Total Available Market). It's very small since the market is already owned by Kirkham (and to some degree, Shelby). So if you are going to build a body shell for someone to add over a FFR frame, etc, you're truly left with the "kit builder" crowd. The number of people who are willing to invest in a body kit from some one with no track record is very small. As I replied when Seven7 was trying to justify his split off, it's not a business I would make an investment in.

Second, this will be a very labor intensive product. For high quality it will be hard to compete with Kirkham, and for low quality the issues will be fit and finish left to the buyer. There is enough variation even in the factory cars that it will be an issue.

This is not a case of "if you build it they will come".

Good luck though.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Is this a sustainable business model? Figure your TAM (Total Available Market). It's very small since the market is already owned by Kirkham (and to some degree, Shelby). So if you are going to build a body shell for someone to add over a FFR frame, etc, you're truly left with the "kit builder" crowd. The number of people who are willing to invest in a body kit from some one with no track record is very small. As I replied when Seven7 was trying to justify his split off, it's not a business I would make an investment in.

Second, this will be a very labor intensive product. For high quality it will be hard to compete with Kirkham, and for low quality the issues will be fit and finish left to the buyer. There is enough variation even in the factory cars that it will be an issue.

This is not a case of "if you build it they will come".

Good luck though.

Getting back on topic ...

Originally Posted by Alloycars

As told I am willing to go for a FFR MKIV conversion kit with an aluminum body together with this forum:

I have seen that a MKIII is a totally different world but I got a good idea as in fact the body construction himself will not change...just the shape.

So lets start. What I need?
- I have information that the MKIV body is a copy from an original car. Is this right?

- Hood, doors and trunk aluminum panels from an original car are supported by individually tubular subframes. The MKIV has fiberglass and a front subframe.
SHould this be changed?
For body to chassis attachments we can go later.

Originally Posted by Alloycars

Actually we are selling cars, ready to drive and with an aluminum body starting under 85,000. They are based on MKIV.

Bodies? I have to make a conversion kit first and then I will know something about the price. I am still evaluation the whole situation as I still search for an "attachment" solution.

With FFR I have an agreement with Tony that we are going individually and we agreed that future customers can in fact buy kits from FFR without a bodies getting the respective discount. I cant build a high quantity like FFR as they are quick to built, at the other side I think we could produce 6-8 kits/month for sure. Lets see.

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[twobjshelbys]

As part of the business model due diligence consider the following:

You are proposing selling an aftermarket rebody kit for an already established product line that is all fiberglass. If you were asking for venture capital money I would want you to explain why you think this is a good idea when in fact FFR doesn't offer the product in aluminum, even as an option.

You may be better off becoming a supplier to FFR for alloy bodies and let them absorb the secondary costs of warranty, dealing with fit, etc.

[twobjshelbys]

Another business model question:

In the past 10 years:

a. How many people have started manufacturing Cobra replicas?

b. How many people have exited the business?

Chances are b > a

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Another business model question:

In the past 10 years:

a. How many people have started manufacturing Cobra replicas?

b. How many people have exited the business?

Chances are b > a

Including mom and pop operations (Less than 20 kits annually)

A=7
B=13


Bill S.

[kevins2]

Hi Bill,

The answer is likely yes, if this is the same Tony he's talking about.

https://www.factoryfive.com/whats-ne...ome-additions/

By the way, this thread is mistakenly in the "small block talk" forum...