Cammer parts.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Detroit Bill

If they did not reply, shame on them they are wrong.

OK, are you now on the RodKnock team?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

OK, are you now on the RodKnock team?

My team roster is full. No new players.

Located somewhere in every investment prospectus is the following phrase:

“Past performance does not guarantee future results.” Otherwise known as the "What have you done for me lately?" rule.

Just because McDonald's has served more than 20 Billion customers, doesn't make today's mistake acceptable in any way shape or form:

Cop Claims McDonald’s Served Him Toxic Tea

Some police officer asked for and bought a McDonald's iced tea and got heavy duty degreaser and spent the night in the hospital. So what if McDonald's has Billions of happy customers, which I have no way of ever understanding BTW.

Does it make this guy feel better?

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Some police officer asked for and bought a McDonald's iced tea and got heavy duty degreaser and spent the night in the hospital.

I've had that. The McDegreaser.
You need it after a Big Mac and fries.

[damage]

This is the email from my engineer here in Australia.

"Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2015 2:38 PM
To: David Trask
Subject: HEADS

Hello David,

Attached are photos of the heads with crack test die on them.
You can see on the welded exhaust port head that 3 of the exhaust ports have cracks(one with 2 cracks).
We pushed a scribe through on of the exhaust port walls(at the most 1mm thick).
On the back of the heads in near the rocker gear you can see that there are cracks coming from where the plugs are.
You can see, if you look carefully that one of the plug areas has been welded and polished off and still looks suspect(so they are aware of the problems).
The person who supplied the heads SHOULD 100% supply you with a new set of heads to replace this pair.(FREE OF CHARGE)
Not being rude to you but these heads are **** and have been patched up and unloaded onto you.
The people who did them would be fully aware of how bad they are!
They have been ported too much to suit the casting and have ended up thin.(being thin and having really bad porosity is not good either for down the track).
They need to have some heads ported .040” -.060” per side undersize or get better casting thickness.
Do you want to have a conversation with them before we continue?
The next step for us with the heads is to pressure test them to see if they are going to leak anywhere else apart from the cracks.(eg porosity holes)


Phil "


I have removed his company details deliberately as there is no need to involve him in this dispute.

This is my email to Keith Craft where I politely gave them a piece of my mind.

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 1:00 AM, David Trask <david@trask> wrote:

"Lance,

Once again no one has responded to me since our last email exchange on 19 February. I’m guessing this was deliberate so I didn’t show up at your workshop while I was in the US.

Please see the email below from the guy here in Australia who is helping me with all the crack testing and machine work that is required.

His email and the photos are self-explanatory, the heads that KC fitted to the engine are substandard (read this as **.

The work that KC did on the heads is poor quality and this has led to further failures. I’m not sure how it is that KC welding up heads on one side of the engine and not supplying port matched heads would be or could be considered a part suppliers problem. This is simply poor workmanship on behalf of KC.

I would like some answers immediately.

Just to remind you of how many times I have emailed you and your responses to date here is a complete outline of all communication on this to date.

DT EMAIL TO KC, My first email to you on this matter was 11/10/14
KC EMAIL TO DT, email You responded and advised me to let you know what parts I needed 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance I responded acknowledging your request. 11/12/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Photos of all damaged parts and parts list provided 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email received 11/22/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance Requested confirmation of email receipt 11/26/14
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirmed receipt of email and forwarded to Keith for his comment 11/27/14. Including photos
DT TO KC, email to Lance acknowledging your email. 11/27/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/11/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/16/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/17/14
DT TO KC, email to Lance and Keith asking for a response 12/23/14
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL spoke to Lance asking for a response 1/7/15 request by yourself to forward photos direct to Keith
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming telephone conversation 1/7/15 and forwarding photos again
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for different email address for Keith 1/9/15 because the email address supplied for Keith was incorrect.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying KC was willing to help 1/10/15
DT TO KC, TELEPHONE CALL to Lance asking what’s going on 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email Keith and Lance forwarding parts list and pictures again as per your request after another telephone call 1/14/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming Keith has been again forwarded all information. 1/14/15 and a copy of an email from Keith to Lance confirming that he wanted photos of all broken parts.
DT TO KC, email to Keith and Lance asking for a time frame on when I will get a response. 1/14/15
DT TO KC, email to Keith with parts list in response to Keith post on Cobra Forum. 2/4/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith received parts list 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/4/15 and confirming that I have never had a direct response from Keith.
KC TO DT, email from Lance saying he thought I had been in contact with Keith. 2/4/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance stating that Keith has never responded to any emails. 2/5/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance confirming that Keith would have a response tomorrow. 2/5/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his response 2/5/15.
KC TO DT, email from Lance asking for more information on what happened and how was engine used. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance explaining every detail of what occurred with engine. 2/7/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking for answers and update on where things were at 2/16/15
KC TO DT, email from Lance stating he would get back to me. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance confirming his advice and requesting immediate response. 2/17/15
KC TO DT , email confirming will let me know asap. 2/17/15
DT TO KC, email to Lance asking where we are at 2/19/15

I’ve been more then patient but my patience has run out.



Regards

David Trask
Managing Director


And this is Lances reply

"You would have been more then welcome to come by here while in the US. I would have encouraged it so you could see as many have that we are not a tiny hole in the wall operation with kids building engines. I have spoke with Keith every time I have received emails. I have asked you several times to please email Keith directly. I am stuck in the middle on the deal. All I can do is relay info to him and he has to make the call. I would love to make a call for you but at this time I am not in the position to be able to make these type decisions. The issue with the heads are the core shift in Coons casting s and the reason we no longer use his heads, we now use the Pond. Our cnc machined cuts off the same location every time locating off the head dowel. If it goes thru because of core shift all we can do is weld the heads and pressure test. We do not install without a pressure test off the engine and then inspect on the dyno. I hate that they may have formed a crack after heat cycles on the heads but they would not have been installed if they were leaking here. We have absolutely no desire for any customers to have any issues with our engine. I was able to get Keith to agree to supply front cover and entire timing assembly from Pond as we feel these are the best kits out at this time. Please send an address and I will have the parts drop shipped. Once again I apologize for the issues and wish I could have helped you get answers sooner. Thanks

Lance Smith
Ph 870-246-7460
Fx 870-246-7418
3157 Hwy 26 W
Arkadelphia, AR 71923"



Whilst I appreciate that Lance is making every effort or at least appears to be trying to help out the response from Keith (the company owner) is far from satisfactory as a timing cover and chains are at best about $1,000 worth of parts and not everything required to fix the motor.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by damage

And this is Lances reply:

"...The issue with the heads are the core shift in Coons castings and the reason we no longer use his heads, we now use the Pond...

Well, they're still advertising the Coon heads for sale as just heads separately or installed on their SOHC engines.

Again, if one goes back and reads the various FEForum threads on the Bill Coon saga, including lawsuits, his aluminum heads had porosity problems dating back to 2010-2011.

As I mentioned before, several years ago, I almost bought a set of Coon heads. But "reading the tea leaves", there was no way I was going to lay out $5,000-$6,000 (then machine and build them w/valves, probably another $2,500) for his problematic heads. Thank goodness.

[damage]

Oh and btw if you think I'm the only one with a problem with that australian company not returning emails and super slow to supply parts paid for in advance why don't you go read all the threads in the owners group for that company.

Just because I choose to call some one out for crap service doesn't mean that I'm making it up.

Just means I grew a set of balls and won't cop this sort of crap

[mhacars]

Damage,

I agree on calling someone out for poor service and I am sympathetic to your situation because it was just like mine with Jim Barillaro......poor service, no response, and not taking responsibility. The bottom line is that you have a significant money at risk and limited recourse. This does not even take into consideration all the grief you have had and that you are probably going to have to fix it on your own and foot the bill to do so. That is what happened to me. Not that it can be monetized to your advantage, but all this shows what Keith Craft is all about. This will do nothing to enhance his reputation as an engine builder and business person. You may want to find an attorney in his area to pursue him and motivate him to take care of the problem. He will quickly realize that you are not going away and the financial implications of inactivity.

[mhacars]

RodKnock,

I can't believe that they are still selling them and they have 6 sets. They also say that they are hard to come by. Given porosity and core shifting, they are abundant and would make terrific boat anchors.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mhacars

RodKnock,

I can't believe that they are still selling them and they have 6 sets. They also say that they are hard to come by. Given porosity and core shifting, they are abundant and would make terrific boat anchors.

I doubt the Coon heads have a 100% defective rate, but I'm sure it's not 1% either. However, I figured out early on in the process that I wasn't bold enough to take a chance on them a $5,000+/pair bare.

Why Damage's engine builder used parts that were well-known to be trouble is beyond my simple comprehension. And I believe Damage has previously stated that the parts aren't under warranty because the engine builder didn't make them, likely without any disclosure that the parts (heads and chain drive) were probably inferior. In terms of a warranty, what makes them any different than, say, a Carillo rod, is just plain weird to me, since I wouldn't build something with parts that I couldn't warranty.

Whether the defective parts are known or not known to be defective, a warranty should cover their repair and/or replacement. Using the same new home builder analogy again, at least here in CA, a new home builder has no choice in the matter. Either the new home builder's insurance pays the repair bill or it's the new home builder, of course, assuming they're still around to be sued.

But that's just me, the consumer advocate.

[mhacars]

RodKnock,

I agree that the builder should stand behind the product that goes out their door. A home builder does not make the components and they have to warranty the product. Why can't then engine builder in this case. It comes down to how you conduct yourself as a business person and it is evident that Keith conducts himself in an improper way. At the very least, Keith should go and send Damage all the parts including the heads from Pond as a way for Damage to mitigate his loss. Given what I have read, that will happen when hair grows out of the palm of my hand.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by mhacars

Given what I have read, that will happen when hair grows out of the palm of my hand.

I hear Rogaine can do that for you.

I believe the engine builder has made an offer now, but from what I see, it wouldn't be enough in terms of my thinking. And it seems Damage's too.

[joyridin']

If somebody botched a $60k motor this bad, I couldn't imagine what they would do to a $10-$15k engine.

Using this theory, you could throw used parts in a $25k motor and claim since you didn't make the parts, they are not under warranty.

[Dimis]

David always a class act! ^

Good luck with the billet heads.
That would be a fitting piece to cap off the dramas that has been damage's build.

[Detroit Bill]

I guess I am the person doing the surmising. I apologize if I offended David it was not my intent. The whole story with Pace and Craft is incredible. Really quite unbelievable for one car. I hope it can be settled and he can enjoy the car when it is done. I also hope the Crafts are doing well and this is nothing more then a bump in the road for them.

I am sure the Kirkhams will take care of things and make it right.

[rodneym]

The Kirkhams.
One of a kind.

[Barry_R]

OK
I'm am going into some dangerous territory here - - but I feel I might need to add a few things that are worth noting. Take the comments for what they are worth.

First is that I have no real personal nor business relationship with Keith. We talk once in a great while and I have sent him a pair of my heads to evaluate. He is a competitor and there is no incentive for me to defend him. I do however occasionally find myself in similar situations and feel the need to put a few things into the builder's perspective from an uninvolved but experienced third party position.

I have built several Cammer engines, and they are a very challenging combination to get really right. As a very much foreshortened program from Ford, they never saw the degree of development that would normally have addressed some areas of weakness. The timing drive system is the most problematic. Nobody - nobody anywhere - has an truly extensive history of hundreds street Cammer builds that they can develop from in the same way that we have evolved the wedge motors. Every single one is something of a prototype in that way.

I do not see the length of the chain as the real issue. I feel that there are genuine problems getting good front to rear chain alignment since each drive/driven item attaches to a different casting - including idlers and tensioners on the heads, the crank, the stub working on a cover mounted bearing, both cams being located by the heads - if anything is off by a minute amount it loads the chain, and many of these have no built in means of adjustment. Allowing some of these items to float on their respective axles rather than hard mounting them might actually work better even though it is counterintuitive. All of the drivel above means that even a slightly marginal chain could be driven beyond its ability by a seemingly minor issue that is nearly impossible to measure or control.

There are only a few chain suppliers for Cammers. The original was a company named Diamond, which provided a .222 pitch chain. There are either out of business or at least not interested in producing automotive chain these days. I believe that Munro has a .250 pitch chain that is likely the best option available, but it requires dedicated sprockets and is not always easily obtained here in the 'States. The two most readily available parts are from either Rolon (India) or Morse (USA or Mexico). I have broken a chain on a Cammer at 2000 RPM - it was a Rolon. I no longer use those parts as a result of the experience, but must admit that we subsequently found an alignment issue that may have been the true root cause of the failure.

As perhaps the only other person here who actually built several SOHC engines, and has broken a timing chain on a Cammer I can personally and absolutely guarantee that it can and will bend every freaking valve in the damn engine even when you have plenty of clearance. It will also bend several STEEL T&D rocker arms and can cause other damage as well. My exact same engine was repaired with the same cam, heads and pistons and subsequently went to 7200 RPM and made 870 HP.

A correctly designed piston will have valve notches that perfectly match the valves in terms of placement and angle. I can also absolutely and positively guarantee that the valve contact can deliver a perfect round imprint on the piston if contact occurs. A roller tip rocker or a rocker on an SOHC engine will not have any rotation force on the valve at all beyond the very small (10 degree?) partial movement cause by the spring winding as it compresses. There is nothing there to cause the valve to rotate. Nothing. The normal and proper wear pattern on the tip of a race valve is a nearly straight line with no indication of rotation.

The next item to address is the Coon heads. Bill Coon is at best a VERY CHALLENGING individual to do business with. I don't really like the guy, but I am able to deal with him. Most of the stories are true, and many others have not been published. With all that in the open I need to point out that I have sold many sets of the Coon Cammer heads, and despite the issues with "the man", there have NEVER been any problems with the parts at all. The only time I ever hit water was in a pair that we had so radically modified that they were almost beyond recognition to achieve 456 cfm. Bill is local to me, and I have been in the world's filthiest garage while he pressure tested his heads to 60 psi and have never had a leaker (except for that one pair that we brutalized with an insane amount of welding before porting into a completely different shape). I can't really say what you're looking at with the dye in the picture from a few thousand miles away, but can pretty well wager that it is not a destructive level of porosity as applied to aluminum casting.

I cannot and will not comment on the respective behaviors of the involved folks, but needed to point out some misinformation I saw posted here. Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

The next item to address is the Coon heads. Bill Coon is at best a VERY CHALLENGING individual to do business with. I don't really like the guy, but I am able to deal with him. Most of the stories are true, and many others have not been published. With all that in the open I need to point out that I have sold many sets of the Coon Cammer heads, and despite the issues with "the man", there have NEVER been any problems with the parts at all.

With all due respect Barry, you're one of the leading engine builders and FE experts in the country, so if I were Bill Coon, I CERTAINLY wouldn't want to get on your bad side.

However, Jay Brown, another FE expert, one who has published at least one book on FE Intakes, had porosity problems with two pairs of Coon's Cammer heads:

August 26, 2012 - The Road to Drag Week 2012

"On the heads, they had to go back and forth to the welding guy four times before all the porosity got welded up; turned out that five of the exhaust ports and one intake port had serious porosity issues, with casting sand coming up out of the casting during the welding process. My machinist was driven nuts by these events, continually having to get the castings rewelded after one porous section was fixed, and the porosity just showed up in another spot. What a nightmare; so much for the quality of Bill Coon's head castings! These heads were worse than any of the Dove SOHC heads I've had problems with. On these heads I also had to have new guides put in, and the guides had to be custom machined because of the oddball guides used in the heads. The reason they had to be replaced was that the tops of the guides were significantly out of round; they appeared to have been hammered in during installation, and were distorted by nearly a thousandth at the top of the guide. You can't hone that out on a guide, so they had to be replaced. This is the second set of Coon heads I've had this problem with. Warning to the other guys out there who have Coon heads; check your valve guides! If your shop doesn't catch that during the valve job, you could be in for a nasty surprise when running the engine."

All it takes is a google search. No expertise required.

[Barry_R]

On a completely separate note. I will be glad to take those unrepairable and unusable heads and provide some level of cost recovery.

I will have John Marcella here in Detroit (do a Google search on him...) weld them up into something very, very usable and radical that you'll end up reading about in the magazines. There is absolutely nothing made from aluminum that he cannot repair. On some parts the cost outweighs the benefit - but a pair of Cammer heads would justify his time, and the level of work required on these simply pales in comparison to the stuff he often take on.

[damage]

Just to give a fair comparison this is a valve from the left side which clearly shows just the point of contact when the chain broke.



Note that the valve is not marked a full 360 degrees.

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Barry_R

On a completely separate note. I will be glad to take those unrepairable and unusable heads and provide some level of cost recovery.

I will have John Marcella here in Detroit (do a Google search on him...) weld them up into something very, very usable and radical that you'll end up reading about in the magazines. There is absolutely nothing made from aluminum that he cannot repair. On some parts the cost outweighs the benefit - but a pair of Cammer heads would justify his time, and the level of work required on these simply pales in comparison to the stuff he often take on.

Thank you for the great explanation. Here is the question I think most of us reading this thread would like to know. Knowing the issues with these engines, why would you build an engine for a customer...not located in the USA on top of it...if you know there are issues? Do you warn them in writing before taking their money they have no warranty, or do you just build it, hope there isn't a problem, then if one appears, try to blame somebody/something else?