Kirkham vs Shelby

[nkb]

Following another current topic thread here it looks like the California CARB (California Air Resources Board) has thrown a wrench into registering replicas. They are maintaining that “rollers” don’t qualify for exemption from smog rules and can’t be registered. They want cars to be assembled from the “ground up” by the hobbyist and further not for resale.

Not sure where this might end up. Obviously the principal suppliers must be fighting this. But if this situation persists then Shelby and SPF rollers could not be registered in California.

Kirkham and ERA will deliver non rollers, if desired, that presumably would still qualify. Of course you need to assemble them.

Hopefully, this registration snafu will get cleared up.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by nkb

Kirkham and ERA will deliver non rollers, if desired, that presumably would still qualify. Of course you need to assemble them.

Hopefully, this registration snafu will get cleared up.

Alright, we're closing in on a month since your original post. Any progress? Or have you thrown in the towel.

[nkb]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Alright, we're closing in on a month since your original post. Any progress? Or have you thrown in the towel.

I haven't thrown in the towel yet. Continuing my education. Went to the Cobra Experience - a must see if you can make it. Spoke with Drew Serb as well as several Cobra replica owners in attendance.

I have no news that the registration snafu here in California has been cleared up yet. Local SPF/CSX dealer here says he expects it to get straightened out. Question is if and when?

For the 289 (slabside) I think I have narrowed it down to SPF and ERA.

Pros for the SPF:
- Delivery time (including paint) is about 7 months.
- More correct chassis and suspension
Cons:
- Marginally more expensive (but depends on how much to paint the ERA)
- Delivered as a roller {pro and con). Seems to cause some CA BAR referees to rule the SPF as not a kit - potentially disqualified for smog exempt registration. TBD


Pros for the ERA:
- Peter seems to be great guy. Would be enjoyable to work with.
- More flexibility on the degree of completeness of assembly as delivered. Opportunity to do more of the work myself. May assist in the CA registration, clearly qualifying it as a kit.

Cons for the ERA:
- Delivery time 14 months. And then paint (another 12 weeks as per Peter). But could paint locally, later. Could leave unpainted for the CA registration - would help the case that it is a kit?
- Chassis and suspension, while apparently well engineered, does not attempt to be original. Wondering about the inboard rear brakes being a headache.
- Have to pay for shipping from East to West Coast.

I ruled out the Kirkham, as way too expensive - now around $250K. And the cost of the Shelby fiberglass CSX as not worth it (to me) with the significant bump over the SPF.


In the meantime I have not driven a Cobra in 50 years (CSX). Makes sense to test drive an SPF or ERA first before placing an order. Hopefully a 289.

And I continue to monitor the registration environment here in California.

Hopefully, I anticipate pulling the trigger on this by the end of the year.

[ERA 626]

Originally Posted by nkb

I haven't thrown in the towel yet. Continuing my education. Went to the Cobra Experience - a must see if you can make it. Spoke with Drew Serb as well as several Cobra replica owners in attendance.

I have no news that the registration snafu here in California has been cleared up yet. Local SPF/CSX dealer here says he expects it to get straightened out. Question is if and when?

For the 289 (slabside) I think I have narrowed it down to SPF and ERA.

Pros for the SPF:
- Delivery time (including paint) is about 7 months.
- More correct chassis and suspension
Cons:
- Marginally more expensive (but depends on how much to paint the ERA)
- Delivered as a roller {pro and con). Seems to cause some CA BAR referees to rule the SPF as not a kit - potentially disqualified for smog exempt registration. TBD


Pros for the ERA:
- Peter seems to be great guy. Would be enjoyable to work with.
- More flexibility on the degree of completeness of assembly as delivered. Opportunity to do more of the work myself. May assist in the CA registration, clearly qualifying it as a kit.

Cons for the ERA:
- Delivery time 14 months. And then paint (another 12 weeks as per Peter). But could paint locally, later. Could leave unpainted for the CA registration - would help the case that it is a kit?
- Chassis and suspension, while apparently well engineered, does not attempt to be original. Wondering about the inboard rear brakes being a headache.
- Have to pay for shipping from East to West Coast.

I ruled out the Kirkham, as way too expensive - now around $250K. And the cost of the Shelby fiberglass CSX as not worth it (to me) with the significant bump over the SPF.


In the meantime I have not driven a Cobra in 50 years (CSX). Makes sense to test drive an SPF or ERA first before placing an order. Hopefully a 289.

And I continue to monitor the registration environment here in California.

Hopefully, I anticipate pulling the trigger on this by the end of the year.

I have owned both cars ERA and CSX (427s) I can tell you from 1st hand experience:

I got my HT/SPF CSX car from Denbeste, Bill is a great guy and was very helpful on the sale of the car but that's where his customer service stops. Bill directed me to call Hillbank for service issues and parts. The customer service from Hillbank (CSX and SPF dealer) is the worst I have ever dealt with EVER.

I often called David Kirkham for help on issues I had with my CSX car as the kirkham car and the GLASS CSX car are very similar (except the glass body) David Kirkham is just like Peter P in terms of customer service. A++

ERA is the exact Opposite, Peter is the best in the business. he has help me over the 17 years I owned the car and even to this day...

I cant say anything about the slabside cars as I have owned 427 cars, but one thing I can say is the SPF 427 and the CSX GLASS HT/SPF cars are completely different. I am not saying one is better than the other, I am simply stating they are different cars completely.

in terms of the quality of the roller:
The Era car was perfect everything was bolt on...

The CSX Car had several issues that needed to be repaired, some done in the south Africa factory and most of the issues like the wrong hardware being installed in the drive train and the electrical/gauges being wired wrong were done by Hillbank or whoever they hired to do the installation. Needless to say it took me a lot of time to fix all the issues with the car. But at the end of the day its a top shelf car... The ERA was perfect from day one.

But if holding value is an issue you cant go wrong with either the ERA, SPF or the CSX.

[nkb]

Originally Posted by ERA 626

I have owned both cars ERA and CSX (427s) I can tell you from 1st hand experience:

I got my HT/SPF CSX car from Denbeste, Bill is a great guy and was very helpful on the sale of the car but that's where his customer service stops. Bill directed me to call Hillbank for service issues and parts. The customer service from Hillbank (CSX and SPF dealer) is the worst I have ever dealt with EVER.

I often called David Kirkham for help on issues I had with my CSX car as the kirkham car and the GLASS CSX car are very similar (except the glass body) David Kirkham is just like Peter P in terms of customer service. A++

ERA is the exact Opposite, Peter is the best in the business. he has help me over the 17 years I owned the car and even to this day...

I cant say anything about the slabside cars as I have owned 427 cars, but one thing I can say is the SPF 427 and the CSX GLASS HT/SPF cars are completely different. I am not saying one is better than the other, I am simply stating they are different cars completely.

in terms of the quality of the roller:
The Era car was perfect everything was bolt on...

The CSX Car had several issues that needed to be repaired, some done in the south Africa factory and most of the issues like the wrong hardware being installed in the drive train and the electrical/gauges being wired wrong were done by Hillbank or whoever they hired to do the installation. Needless to say it took me a lot of time to fix all the issues with the car. But at the end of the day its a top shelf car... The ERA was perfect from day one.

But if holding value is an issue you cant go wrong with either the ERA, SPF or the CSX.

ERA 626 appreciate your comments above. I also read your build thread. One thing I didn't appreciate is that apparently the SPF rollers are not complete from the factory but require work by the local dealer/distributor prior to delivery ?

The shoddy work on your fuel sender and other areas makes me question the SPF touted claim of delivering a high quality consistent build, only needing engine and transmission to complete.

Who does this "finish work" on the SPF roller prior to delivery? If left to the dealer I can imagine certain dealers are better than others. There apparently is an "added value" regarding the dealer quality/capabilities to consider when choosing whom to buy from rather just on price. Probably true for any car purchase but especially if the dealer is actually assembling part of the car.

I believe you bought your car from Denbeste and then indicated that Hillbank did various work (gauges, drivetrain, fuel tank, ...) on your car prior to delivery. I am not sure how that works and is supposed to be coordinated. As you indicated it might be much easier to interface with ERA rather than being bounced around the SPF network.

Can someone clarify how and what the ex-factory SPF prep that is done prior to delivery of the roller to the buyer?

[1795]

I purchased an SPF 289 FIA and have also helped an SPF dealer (Mark IV) unload a couple of SPF rollers from the delivery truck. For the roller I received and the ones that I helped unload, the only thing that the dealer has to install is the wheels. The rollers arrive bolted to a metal frame for transport with the wheels boxed separately.

I cannot speak to why ERA 626 had to have the dealer install anything, unless there were changes from an already delivered roller that they had in stock?

Being that mine was being made into a vintage race car, I had to disassemble the car to make into a race car. It would have been much easier if it had shown up in pieces!

I wish that you were closer, I would show you the car and answer any questions that you have. If you want to talk, send me a PM with your phone number and we can chat. Good luck in your decision making. I previously owned an ERA 427 car and concur with your pros and cons. If you were to go with the ERA route I would suggest that you pay the extra money and go with their outboard brake upgrade. Much easier to service than those inboard brakes.

Jim

[patrickt]

NKB -- I'm going to tell you what to do. Go with the ERA and don't look back. Throw as much money at Peter and the boys as they want and the car will turn out to be exactly what you want. If you do this, you will be happy. Trust me, I'm right on this.

[nkb]

Originally Posted by 1795

I purchased an SPF 289 FIA and have also helped an SPF dealer (Mark IV) unload a couple of SPF rollers from the delivery truck. For the roller I received and the ones that I helped unload, the only thing that the dealer has to install is the wheels. The rollers arrive bolted to a metal frame for transport with the wheels boxed separately.

I cannot speak to why ERA 626 had to have the dealer install anything, unless there were changes from an already delivered roller that they had in stock?

Being that mine was being made into a vintage race car, I had to disassemble the car to make into a race car. It would have been much easier if it had shown up in pieces!

I wish that you were closer, I would show you the car and answer any questions that you have. If you want to talk, send me a PM with your phone number and we can chat. Good luck in your decision making. I previously owned an ERA 427 car and concur with your pros and cons. If you were to go with the ERA route I would suggest that you pay the extra money and go with their outboard brake upgrade. Much easier to service than those inboard brakes.

Jim

Thanks for the input.

Regarding the inboard brakes, according to the ERA website only the FIA has an option for the outboard brake upgrade. So, for the regular ERA slab side the only option is the inboard Jaguar setup. Also, only the inboard brake version allows for the exhaust out the back (which I want).

A careful analysis of pricing indicates that the SPF and ERA are almost the same price ("apples to apples"), depending on the final cost for painting the ERA (included on the SPF). So cost between the two is not really a differentiator.

Still weighing pros and cons. A big one appears to be the longer delivery time on the ERA. Close to a year more.