Pick your side

[Excaliber]

Good point Ned, lets not loose sight of the fact that the license agreement is largely a 'red herring' when it comes to the 'real' issues at hand.

(Red Herring)... the formal fallacy of presenting an argument that may in itself be valid, but doesn't address the issue in question. The formal fallacy of presenting an argument that may in itself be valid, but doesn't address the issue in question.

[Don]

Using Google and the search term :

saac & shelby licensing agreement

EarthLink Search: "saac & shelby licensing agreement"

will return a number of web entries on the subject. A very cursory read indicates much of the same information as posted on this Thread. However, does provide a recap of the various documents/news releases which have been published. Did not find the entire Licensing Agrrement

A new item I had not previously seen, but may have been already posted in a reply. From The MustangNews.com, those in SAAC may be aware of the following. The entry was dated 2-1-08, but the date of the sale in 2007 was not specified

" Ford Motor Company sold the SVT Owners Association to the management of SAAC last year, a move the people at the Glass House might be questioning the wisdom of at this point. "

[REAL 1]

Oinie: I read whats there. Its bits and pieces of the licensing agreement.

It seems that there was indeed a licensing agreement signed in 1999. How Kopec could say he didn't remember it brings some concern to me.

I can't tell from whats there whether the Registry is covered by the licensing agreement. It may be to the extent it uses logos and trademarks belonging to Shelby as opposed to the information SAAC gathered for publication which seems to be their separate work product and property.

If SAAC signed a licensing agreement they have to honor it. Period.

This doesn't make any effort to put SAAC out of business "right" from an overall point of view (eventhough he may have a right do what he is doing) point of SAAC members and enthusiasts but may make Shelby right in insisting that licensing agreement be complied with.

[Excaliber]

I think the SAAC argument (contract via fraud) could well apply in this case. I wouldn't be so quick to assume that just because there is a written signed document thats the end of it. Sure, it's an uphill battle against a written vs verbal contract. But the history of Shelby business dealings (not 100% straight up with folks) and the history of the 'UNENFORCED never talked about again license agreement' is an arguable point. Add to that a number of people that would testify as to what they heard, hand shake deals, etc and it becomes an arguable point.

SAAC is guilty of being naive and trusting, when Shelby told them it was no big deal, not to worry, just keeps my lawyers happy I guess they actually believed him! And for the next nine years they were right, Shelby did nothing with the license.

[Nedsel]

Evan, Rick Kopec has never said he doesn't recall signing a license agreement.

[Excaliber]

Were seeing a similiar argument being played out in courts now concerning 'fraud' against real estate agents, banks, mortage officials, etc. The people DID sign a contract, the argument is they signed under false pretenses. An excessive appraisal perhaps, or just simply an unscrupulous lender with grossly misleading details concerning the contract. Perhaps key parts were 'glossed over', or they were told 'not to worry', or even flat out lied too. Take your pick...

[REAL 1]

Ned: Then I misunderstood what Luft said in his letter.

Its clear there was a licensing agreement signed in 1999 though.

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Ned: Then I misunderstood what Luft said in his letter.

Its clear there was a licensing agreement signed in 1999 though.

That's ok Evan, we're used to you misrepresenting "the facts" on all things Shelby

(calm down, just a joke)

[Nedsel]

Evan, to be fair, there was some confusion over whether an agreement was ever actually signed, so Rick could have been quite honestly explaining that he and Ken never signed the final document.

[REAL 1]

Ned: Yes. That there was confusion as to whether their was an agreement seem clear from the correspondence but it does seem clear (at least from Luft's letters) now that there was one.

Thanks.

[Jamo]

As Evan has assplained several times (rightfully so), the bestest place to start in a contract dispute is to read the contract.

[Chaplin]

Originally Posted by Jamo

As Evan has assplained several times (rightfully so), the bestest place to start in a contract dispute is to read the contract.

Another form of the old adage, "When all fails read the directions!"

[Don]

RE: 1:08-cv-10131-LTS SHELBY AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE CLUB, INC. v. CARROLL SHELBY LICENSING, INC.

The above US District Court reference had previously been posted. PACER ( Public Access to Court Electronic Records ) is a fee based system to access the documents.

PACER Service Center Home Page

I asked the PACER Service Center for additional information and clarification, the reply is included below. Public access is available by registering and the fee with use of a credit card is $ . 08 per page. I have not referenced the documents, but did want to share with everyone there is a method to obtain the US District Court information, which may be the same as referenced earlier by JohnWorthing848 in his Reply

From: pacermail@psc.uscourts.gov
Subject: Re: Court Filing Access
Date: February 20, 2008 4:18:52 PM EST

1:08-cv-10131-LTS SHELBY AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE CLUB, INC. v. CARROLL SHELBY
LICENSING, INC.

Currently, the docket report for this case is 1 page and there are 4
documents filed in the case that are combined 27 pages.

PACER is available to the public. We are not aware of other online
services that allow access to federal cases.

You will be able to access the case once you have a PACER login and
password.


Thank you,
PACER Service Center

For Frequently Asked Questions: Frequently Asked Questions
For Account Information: https://pacer.psc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/psclogin.pl

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Don

I asked the PACER Service Center for additional information and clarification, the reply is included below. Public access is available by registering and the fee with use of a credit card is $ . 08 per page. I have not referenced the documents, but did want to share with everyone there is a method to obtain the US District Court information, which may be the same as referenced earlier by JohnWorthing848 in his Reply

Save your 8 cents a page...the full document is posted on SAACforum.

SAAC vs. CSLI - copy of complaint filing

[Don]

Thanks Ron, looks like I missed the reference to the SAAC posting. Would you know, the PACER Service Center indicates a total of 27 pages and the SAAC link has 10 pages, might there are have been updates that are not included in the SAAC posting ? Or, I did not view the entire SAAC reference.

From the PACER Service Center reply:

"Currently, the docket report for this case is 1 page and there are 4
documents filed in the case that are combined 27 pages ".

[Jamo]

Hmmmm....

This is what we moderators have to deal with, and then folks jump our ass for moderating...

Cobra Venom, you made a couple of mistakes:

1. You accuse us of "defending" Amy.
2. You evidently have some uncontrollable personal anger, which is not what this thread is about.
3. I gave you fair warning and moderated your very first post at this site, which went far beyond the policies of this site.
4. You posted a continuation of your personal attack elsewhere on an unrelated thread..after you were moderated.
5. You have chosen to make it personal with a moderator...we don't have the time for personal relationships.


This is not going to be your bully pulpit for personally attacking anyone. Again, you are invited to talk about the issues in a calmer manner, and be a part of the thread. Continue on your course, and you will be shown the door.

Fair warning has been given...

...and no more warnings will be extended.



And BTW, for any that wonder...I am NOT a member of SAAC, nor am I a member of Team Shelby. I own a Kirkham, and I really don't give a sh!t about the dispute one freeking way or another other than dealing with the complete and utter bullsh!t I've heard from both sides and having to read assinine comments from talking heads who think they know something about the legal system. I've had more run ins with former presidents of Shelby than any of you recent members (last 3 years) can imagine, and chose to go with Kirkham despite being quite able to go with Shelby purely because I didn't like the way Shelby was being run. I also didn't have alot of good feelings for SAAC given their past treatment of replica-owners and seemingly being in lockstep with Shelby until they themselves got b!tched slapped. [Yes, replica owners could attend and run at SAAC events (I've done so in the past), but that misses the point...even 4000 owners were treated as forgotten cousins] I see them trying to reach out now...web site, etc., but it is being done with a hand out, so the credibility factor is questionable as far as I'm concerned.

I also don't drink the kool-aid that either or both SAAC and Shelby created this hobby and therefore I should be grateful to one or the other for being able to drive my Kirkham and lay down my rug and point my head towards Vegas or back east as I offer thanks several times a day. Bullsh!t...they both should be kissing our collective feet/asses for buying and building our cars.

Now that's my opinion, and we are all entitled to one. My point is to make it assolutely clear that no side is being taken when we moderate on this subject.

Both camps have their attack dogs out and about...we don't mind some growling, but the ball biting ain't gonna happen on these pages.

[Cobra Venom]

JAMO, my apologies for not abiding by the policies herein. Though I don't know where you read in my post that I accused moderators of choosing sides. That couldn't be further from the truth. I merely made a general statement to those who've praised Ms. Boylan for "hanging in there", or "remaining true to her cause", or "enduring this whole ordeal". Unless you're one of those that praised her, you weren't being addressed so you can rest easy. You see, Ms. Boylan IS the decision maker at Shelby. It's not the "licensing department" that's made this decision. It's Amy Boylan. I feel that SAAC are not the only ones to have a bright red target painted on their backs. Cross her and sure as the day is long, she'll be a comin' for you, guns blazing. It's a religious war of sorts. [Redacted inappropriate content] It doesn't take a genius to know that something is seriously wrong here. Sure, there's always the other side of the story but I wonder what a story like that would sound like. I defy anyone to dream up a story that would sound logical enough [Redacted inappropriate content]. In my wildest peyote induced dreams I couldn't come up with a logical, or legal reason Shelby would take a man's money, (a sh*tload) a year and half ago and not deliver what was contractually agreed upon. Wait, one story comes to mind. (See Automotive Weekly quote by Amy Boylan, "Shelby took 170 $10K deposits for cars he knew he couldn't deliver). JAMO, I've got no uncontrollable anger toward Amy Boylan or Carroll Shelby. Oh no! I'm livid with the people who supress the truth to avoid confrontation. Forums should be a means to openly discuss the issues that can't be resolved single-handedly. If I can't answer a question here, I'm positive someone else can. That's the luxury of this whole thing. I agree random name calling should be moderated but don't kill the messenger or lop of his horses legs to prevent his hailing or getting information disseminated (dis·sem·i·nate /dɪˈsɛməˌneɪt/ –verb (used with object), -nat·ed, -nat·ing. to scatter or spread widely, as though sowing seed; promulgate extensively; broadcast; disperse: to disseminate information about preventive medicine.) Again, I'm not angry at any Shelby employees. Just like I wasn't mad at the last trial I testfied in which resulted in a large company was forced to pay out over $22 million in damages for exactly the same thing. People, if you were wronged by Shelby, speak out. That goes for the one that were done a great dead by Shelby, speak out. Let's see which way the scales tip. Thanks for the opportunity to voice my opinion.

[RodKnock]

Not that Jamo needs any affirmation of his opinion and thoughts, but I believe he has it exactly right. Harumph! (Mel Brooks "The Gov" character from Blazing Saddles).

[Naumoff]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Not that Jamo needs any affirmation of his opinion and thoughts, but I believe he has it exactly right. Harumph! (Mel Brooks "The Gov" character from Blazing Saddles).

Feet Kisser.

me too. Jamo that was great!

[JWheaton]

I agree...JAMO's best moderation to date.


Also agree that no one should be biting at Amy's ba@@'s or anyone else's