Pick your side

[Wayne Maybury]

This whole thing is so very sad. For decades we held this man in high regard, almost aa a saint. SAAC made sure that the cars he built were properly recorded and documented in their registry. After many years, our hero found some frames that he claimed to be original dating back to the 60's so he could produce a few more original Cobras. Then the law suits began against anyone and it appeared everyone that crossed the man's path.

Now Mr. $helby has decided that the $helby enthusiast would be better off without SAAC. SAAC are expected to turn over all information dealing with Cobras and $helby Mustangs whether or not it came from Shelby in the first place. They cannot use any of a long list of names and/or words, etc, etc. $helby has even applied to register the name SAAC. This sounds like one thing to me, and that is that $helby has decided to squash SAAC.

Anyone wanting to bet that more frames are already being lined up ready to be discovered?

I find it very sad indeed that my automotive hero appears to be turning into a greedy old man.

Wayne

[427sharpe]

Kristen;
I, like you, am usually not a picker of sides. I enjoy too much of the 'car scene' to by nature pick one group over another. But this has gone to a whole new level of deception and deceit. A multitude of lies have been spread all the while to cover what was from the very beginning an underhanded attempt to destroy one society for personal vengenance and outright greed. When you or someone you care about is attacked, when someone lies to your face and stabs you in the back while approaching as your friend I see no middle ground. So I and many others believe that yes, it is very necessary to 'pick sides'. There was plenty of room for everybody until one man decided that he owned the sandbox. I agree it was unnecessary. But I did not make the decision to defecate in the sand.

[Dan Stryffeler]

Ah... I don't really feel the need to "pick a side". And I think it's awfully presumptuous for SAAC to say that because I am a member, that I have a dog in this fight (or whatever the phrase was). Automatically placing me on any side just because I am a member presumes that I agree with everything that group stands for which is just plain silly.

I don't believe that the market will become flooded with fake cars (passing themselves off as originals) if the registry is turned over to Shelby (personally, I hope the registry stays with SAAC - they built it). There are probably more GTO's, Chevelle SS, 442's, etc. on the road now than were ever manufactured and the prices of the "real" cars continue to go up regardless... In fact, I think that is what pushes most of us to create clones - the originals become too valuable and we can't afford them or they are just too expensive to actually put on the road. Will there be an opportunity for fraud? yep, but that also exists now... how many times has such a thing been mentioned on these forums regarding eBay?

Doesn't the concept of 'buyer beware' mean anything?

The arguments I'm hearing are like those of the NRA - if they take away my armour piercing bullets today, tomorrow they will get my handgun.

Let the courts settle it out.

Just my 2 cents...

Dan

[Excaliber]

It has become an ethical question more than a legal one. Shelby, or a conquering army, may win the war, but that doesn't mean they win the hearts and minds of the people. I believe public opinion will be a factor with the courts, those who fail to take a stand for SAAC effectivly support Shelby, in my opinion.

There are many examples of the populous 'not wanting to get involved' in wars until it was to late to see the new dictator for what he really was. Will Club Cobra be next? We all do have a dog in this fight...

[HIQ]

SAAC has my support.

[RACER X #99]

Ernie, There are always those who ride the fence in any dispute but isn't it ironic that in the final decision they always wind up on the winning side.

Roger D

[REAL 1]

Uh, first I don't intend to Shut the "F" up and John I have your cup of "Shut the "F" up right here.

I asked the questions I did because I have not been following what has been going on. Believe it or not I have other things going on that are more pressing and important to me.

The long and short is I do support SAAC. They have done a great job and done much to foster the hobby.

I cannot say that CSL does or does not have legitimate gripe though. I don't know enough about it. I know someone posted CS position and reasons on this forum awhile back.

I don't think that CSL should be looking to cripple or eliminate SAAC for many, many reasons unless as a last resort they need to in order protect their trade names and licensed rights. The motive should not be about destroying another club so you can be the only game in town, however. I believe that the sentiment engendered by this latest lawsuit regardless of who started it on the part of Cobra/Shelby enthusiasts and the enthusiast community will not be good and will be detrimental to the hobby. Litigation should be a last resort. I don't see why a fair licensing agreement can't be worked out with all appropriate safeguards to CSL thus allowing both clubs to exist side by side. The more venues people have to get involved the better for the hobby.

The masses of people who belong to SAAC and who will see this as an effort to destroy their club and be embittered by it should give Team Shelby pause as to their course and perhaps cause both sides to rethink the solution. Again not a very wise business move, similar to the action against FFR and SPF years ago which was unnecessary and caused alot of hard feelings against SAI.

And yes, Ron and John, I do consider SAAC an authority on all things Shelby regardless of which side I take, if I take a side that is. To the extent that Shelby is seeking to elimate SAAC or if that is their intent I oppose their actions but to the extent they are looking to just protect their rights and work out a reasonable licensing agreement, if that is their end game, I have no problem with it.

Also, Ron and John does this mean you now accept SAAC's official position on the Continuation series as authoritative? Please do tell...

Also, its not very smart to take sides until you have all the facts but.....in typical CC style some here will never let the facts get in the way of their decisions or position. Moreover, it may never dawn on some here that there is more then one side to a dispute and very rarely is one side 100% right.

[Don]

Amy:

CSI's PR firm, Time Piece Public Relations & Marketing, has not updated a CS press release since Dec 7, 2007. Any new press releases ?

TimePiece

Don

[John McMahon]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Uh, first I don't intend to Shut the "F" up and John I have your cup of "Shut the "F" up right here.

I asked the questions I did because I have not been following what has been going on. Believe it or not I have other things going on that are more pressing and important to me.

The long and short is I do support SAAC. They have done a great job and done much to foster the hobby.

I cannot say that CSL does or does not have legitimate gripe though. I don't know enough about it. I know someone posted CS position and reasons on this forum awhile back.

I don't think that CSL should be looking to cripple or eliminate SAAC for many, many reasons unless as a last resort they need to in order protect their trade names and licensed rights. The motive should not be about destroying another club so you can be the only game in town, however. I believe that the sentiment engendered by this latest lawsuit regardless of who started it on the part of Cobra/Shelby enthusiasts and the enthusiast community will not be good and will be detrimental to the hobby. Litigation should be a last resort. I don't see why a fair licensing agreement can't be worked out with all appropriate safeguards to CSL thus allowing both clubs to exist side by side. The more venues people have to get involved the better for the hobby.

The masses of people who belong to SAAC and who will see this as an effort to destroy their club and be embittered by it should give Team Shelby pause as to their course and perhaps cause both sides to rethink the solution. Again not a very wise business move, similar to the action against FFR and SPF years ago which was unnecessary and caused alot of hard feelings against SAI.

And yes, Ron and John, I do consider SAAC an authority on all things Shelby regardless of which side I take, if I take a side that is. To the extent that Shelby is seeking to elimate SAAC or if that is their intent I oppose their actions but to the extent they are looking to just protect their rights and work out a reasonable licensing agreement, if that is their end game, I have no problem with it.

Also, Ron and John does this mean you now accept SAAC's official position on the Continuation series as authoritative? Please do tell...

Also, its not very smart to take sides until you have all the facts but.....in typical CC style some here will never let the facts get in the way of their decisions or position. Moreover, it may never dawn on some here that there is more then one side to a dispute and very rarely is one side 100% right.

Evan,

I have always agreed with SAAC's position the Continuation series.....

to quote Rick Kopec on SAAC Forums dated 1/10/08 @12:19AM:

Originally Posted by Rick Kopec

We have to give them the bad news. It’s not something we look forward to but it goes with the territory. We have expanded the registry each time we've printed it because there are more cars that "qualify" (and we get to determine which cars qualify and which ones don't, because THAT goes with the territory, too). We know that putting a group of cars in the registry raises their stature and may increase their value, but that’s an unintended consequence; a coincidence—albeit it a happy one for the owner of those cars. It is not the reason why we include them.

The registry initially included original Cobras and that needs no explanation. But when another category of cars was produced—AC MK IVs— we expanded our database to include them because they were very similar to the originals in the construction of their chassis and the shape of their body. We felt that it was not enough to include only original Cobras and exclude everything else, because ten or twenty years into the future these similar cars could very easily turn up renumbered as original, owner unknown Cobras. Providing specifications, production history, serial numbers, individual histories, and present or last known owners in a separate section of the registry would help keep these cars separate and distinct from the originals (and that’s our primary goal in including them) rather than just ignoring them because they are not originals. The same goes for the GT40 MK Vs. And we used the same rationale for including the CSX4000 series cars.

Now, fast-forward ten years. There are even more cars which fit our parameters for inclusion in the new registry: Kirkham Cobras, CSX7000 and CSX8000, AC COX continuation cars, McCluskey Daytona Coupes, Holman GT40 MK IIs, Kar Kraft MK IVs. It is confusing at best and downright mystifying for someone just starting out. Do we turn our backs on all these cars and leave everyone on their own? That’s not the way SAAC operates. We want to make everyone knowledgeable so they can protect themselves from buying something that isn’t what they think it is or what it is advertised to be. If it adds a little something to a car because it is “in the registry,” well, lucky them. But that’s not our purpose.

We are including the Superformance Brock Daytona Coupes in the registry because of Peter Brock’s involvement in the project. Without that we would probably not have been interested in including them.

In the last few years, Carroll Shelby has developed the habit of using the promise of SAAC registry inclusion as a deal sweetener for the cars he negotiated royalties on. He told Unique Performance that the Eleanor GT500Es and GT350 S/Rs would be in the registry without so much as consulting us. He told Barry Smith the same thing about the continuation 1967s, 1968s and 1969s he is building under the banner of Legendary GT Cars in Pennsylvania. And most recently he was involved with the builder of the Dearborn Deuce ’32 Ford steel reproductions. They were negotiating a deal to make a batch of these cars using Shelby aluminum 427 engines, Halibrand wheels, Lemans stripes and other Cobra-type styling cues. Shelby tossed out the promise that they would all be listed in SAAC’s registry. The first we heard about it was when someone called us to ask us about it and we had to confess that it was the first we had heard of it.

In all honesty, we resented the way Shelby was using SAAC and its registry to help line his pockets in putting together these “Shelby authorized” deals. He was creating a lot of extra work for us without offering to share the largesse. Not that we particularly agreed with his attaching-his-name-to-anything-for-a-fee philosophy. It’s just that he never even presented the idea to us to give us the chance to reject it.

Now it’s a moot point. Shelby has announced that Team Shelby will be doing a registry of their own. They can add the Unique GT500E and GT350 S/R cars to it, along with the Legendary GT continuation cars, Shelby Deuces, Shelby electric guitars, hydrogen powered Cobras, Shelby/Rucker motorcycles and whatever else he can convince someone to pay him to put his name on. It’s going to be some registry!

I have never said a bad word about your car, it is pristine and close to perfect (remember first place in that car show?). I just don't agree with your 'interpretation' of their official position.

Someday, we can sit down and have a nice cup of coffee and talk about it.

I guess the question is will you attend the Team Shelby convention or the SAAC convention? Hell, SAAC will be in your back yard this year.

Do you feel a Team Shelby Registry will do anymore to enhance the provenance of your car versus the official SAAC Registry?

[REAL 1]

John: What you quoted is not SAACs official position. You know it. All you need do is look at their home page and the page that discusses their position as all various Shelby cars.

All you posted was Kopecs explanation of why certain cars were included in the SAAC registry. SAAC position on the various cars is posted on their web site.

Nice try.

Do you agree with SAAC official position statement on their web site as to the Continuation Series being a genuine Cobra and no different from the original except the time frame it was made. Its right there in black and white and its not "my interpretation" Thats the SAAC position and thats what they say explicity. Do you agree with what they say.....? If so we can be friends. There was a time you were actually a fun guy and not so mean spirited. I guess sour puss rubbed off on you.

[RACER X #99]

Can one of the moderators please close this thread this guy makes me want to puke.

Thanks in advance,

RD

[John McMahon]

Evan,

You'll have to point me to that page on their site. All I find regarding CSX4000s is a link to a form for Component Cobras (CSX1, CSX4, CSX7 & CSX8)

....and I am a fun guy, still!

I just don't like my hobby to sound like a job. You make it sound like one. you lay it out chapter and verse to all that will listen. Just enjoy the car. You have started a very nice collection.

I just find this whole thing very underhanded and I don't think Carroll came up with this all on his own..... unless he is suffering from Dimentia.

The SAAC convention should be fun....Someone tried to put a note about it up on Team Shelby and it was deleted...why????????

I really find it offending if they are editing/deleting threads just because it has something to do with SAAC. I am sure there are SAAC members registered on Team Shelby, that maybe like yourself, feel uneasy supporting one side or another. This is no time to sit back as I see it.

[Old Phart]

I thought this thread was "Pick Your Side". Not about whether a CSX 4000 series was real or not. Heck, if you want to know about the CSX 4000's cars, look it up in the 1997 Shelby Registry. That's good enough for me.

[Dangerous Doug]

I just joined SAAC. Paid my dues just now.

I will NOT be joining the club formerly known as "Team Shelby".

I was a die hard Shelby supporter. He's lost my faith.

Sorry, Mr. Shelby, but think you're making a huge mistake on SAAC.

Sincerely,
Dangerous Doug

[RodKnock]

"Thread Killer" strikes again.

[Bluestreak]

I knew there were issues the day I came on. I spoke to the SAAC owners at VIR and told them Carroll was upset. He hadn't gone to a convention in years. .....amy b

He hadn't gone to a convention in years? What? Let's see.....VIR was SAAC 31 in 2006....right?

SAAC 30 was in California in 2005:



That looks like CS in the cowboy hat, there in the middle...

SAAC 29 was in Michigan:



Think I've seen that guy at the podium before...

Then there was SAAC 28 in Nashville:



I think the guy next to Dennis Gage is CS....

At SAAC 27, even though Shelby was in great pain from recent surgery, he still entertained SAAC members for lunch at his shop.

I think clubcobra members have as much to fear from CS and TS as SAAC members....if he succeeds in crushing SAAC...he'll be after anybody else who happens to use "Cobra" in their name. This is definately a dark time in history for Shelby and Cobra enthusiasts.

Just think, if CS had invested half as much effort into embracing the Cobra replica market, instead of suing and trying to KILL it, he COULD have probably been the largest Cobra replica manufacturer in the world. Instead, he has alienated an entire group of followers who loved the cars he built so much that they created their own versions of it.

Seems to me it would have been much simpler to just leave SAAC alone, and start Team Shelby for the guys with the new cars. If SAAC was so bad, people would have switched over to TS anyway. Now, the lines have been drawn, and the guys who tune their cars with computers are on one side, and the guys who tune them with their ears are on the other side - and I don't think most of them are coming over.....

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by Old Phart

I thought this thread was "Pick Your Side". Not about whether a CSX 4000 series was real or not. Heck, if you want to know about the CSX 4000's cars, look it up in the 1997 Shelby Registry. That's good enough for me.

Assolutely correct. Evan and John...good discussion on the other points, but no more about Evan's favorite subject on this thread.

Thanks...your cooperation is expected and most appreciated.

[Chaplin]

If CS wants to take back his name and not let SAAC use it, I guess who is to say that he can't do that, after all, it is his name. However, for him to do that after all SAAC has done through out the years to support the hobby and, indirectly CS himself, would be a pretty sh!tty thing to do, but that is his call I guess.

However, it is complete BS for CS to try and lay claim to the work product created by SAAC and its members over years. IMO, he has absolutely right whatsover to that.

Thus, I support SAAC.

[John McMahon]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Assolutely correct. Evan and John...good discussion on the other points, but no more about Evan's favorite subject on this thread.

Thanks...your cooperation is expected and most appreciated.

Jamo,

I was working my way back on topic....

Maybe I can ask Amy since she seems to control things over at TS....

....Someone tried to put an informational note about the SAAC convention up on Team Shelby and it was deleted...why????????

I really find it offending if they are editing/deleting threads just because it has something to do with SAAC. Why all the deletions???? That thread was hurting no one!

[Dan Stryffeler]

Racer X#99,

You gave us two choices when you started the thread; I choose neither, and it's not because I'm waiting to see who comes out a winner because I don't believe anything good will come out of any of this; i.e. there won't be any winners...

I hope SAAC keeps the registry, and that the property that belongs to Shelby (business records) are returned to him. If this means I can't buy another Tshirt with a GT350 on it, from SAAC, officially licensed by Shelby than so be it - that's what licensing agreements are for.

Shelbys legacy (good and bad) are best documented by historians and authors, and shouldn't be the basis for lawsuits.

I admire your passion on this, but don't throw all of us who don't take your position into some class of fence riding opportunists.

If I saw a copy of the licensing agreement, (not that I have any right to, just being -you know; a member of SAAC), maybe I would get more involved in supporting the club in this legal fight.

"I remember that I once got an "F" on a question that asked my opinion!" - Galagher

- Dan