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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2015, 04:39 AM
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Hi!
Have the same engine like you in a SPF.
Roush rated it at 548 HP (flywheel) with dual plane intake and 870 Avenger.
On a Mustang dynameter the result was more or less 450 RW HP. Take
a look at my Gallery the sheet is there. It is with stock SPF pipes and headers.
Have changed some years later to a Quickfuel cause i had Problems with my Holley.
I feel no difference in max. Power, but the Response is faster. Timing and Timing curve is optimized too. This Sumer i will investigate
additional time for carb Tuning.
If there are missing 50 HP i do not believe that a carb swap will bring the result - if the
Avenger is tuned right it will be not a miserable one - and believe me without Tuning a new carb will not work correct.
So in any case i would first check the Timing, the Timing curve...then optimize the existing carb and then you will have a solid base.

Wish you a great day!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2015, 02:48 AM
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Default Exhaust

I had my car on the dyno the other day , Hub dyno 408w and only got 420 at the wheels , with a dip in the torque curve , I thought it might be the mufflers , so we removed the center core (spirals) and picked up 62hp !. Cheers .
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2015, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron61 View Post
On mine my flywheel horsepower was 530 and the RWHP was 390.

Ron
had a similar "loss": 500/680hp...
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2015, 06:41 PM
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Let me add a little Mayhem to the mix. Just got off the chassis dyno my car has a Keith Craft 427 with a motor dyno sheet showing 589hp give or take a few hp. Car went from a Holley 770 street avenger to a Quickfuel750......on the Mustang dyno it made 375rwhp and I will have to get the torque number as I have already forgotten. Pretty disappointing but if it runs better thats all that matters. We even did a compression test as the tuner was a bit alarmed and felt like the car should have been in the 420hp range on his dyno as other 427's have been......and before anyone ask the airfilter was taken off and that only made a 4hp increase. The sidepipes are not stock SPF pipes they are the Firefly brand with 2.5" diameter.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2015, 02:30 AM
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Like Brent said Mustang dynos show more loss.
Typically another 13% loss compared to the dynojet. It showed that on my dyno session.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2015, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by RET_COP View Post
Like Brent said Mustang dynos show more loss.
Typically another 13% loss compared to the dynojet. It showed that on my dyno session.
I am aware that in most cases mustang dynos read lower compared to dynojets. If you run the numbers it doesn't add up. If the motor made 590hp lets take 20% off that so you would expect a Dynojet would read somewhere in the neighborhood of 470rwhp and a Mustang dyno to read 410-420. Mine cranked out 375hp so you can see the concern as it appears it is down 35-50hp from where one would expect. As part of the elimination process i have a Dynojet in town so that could be used to make a single pull and know what your readings are on a Dynojet brand dyno. If you turned out 375rwhp on the Mustang you could reasonably expect a Dynojet to read 410-420hp. If both are in typical spec for power readings but you are still 35-50hp off then you know you areissing something. I'm not trying to make numbers or split hairs just trying to find out why it's not in the range of what this setup should be making. Previous owner thinks there is an old dyno shirt from Oltoff racing where it did 470rwhp....if he has a Dynojet then that would sound about right using a 20% drivetrain loss
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2015, 04:22 AM
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Clutch slipping? Did you cut the filter open and look for issues with the engine?
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2015, 07:09 AM
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Clutch slipping? Did you cut the filter open and look for issues with the engine?
Clutch is not slipping and yes the oil filter was cut open and no bearing material was found. Compression test results are 1-150lb, 2-160lb, 3-160lb, 4-160lb, 5-155lb, 6-160lb, 7-162lb, 8-160lb cranking with a brand new optima red top. I spoke to the engine shop and they said it should be 175-180lb per cylinder and that the last tuner back in 09 must have simply tuned the car too rich and this is a result of washing the rings. I've been advised if I keep the oil level correct it will be fine to drive it the remainder of the year before having it fixed. It does use oil but I have never seen smoke from the side pipe until this past dyno visit...I only noticed a tiny bit of dark smoke under hard throttle with AFR being 12.5. Do you agree? I'm bummed but look at this glass half full with an opportunity to freshen the motor and make changes
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 05-09-2015, 07:15 AM
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You will probably see black smoke at WOT with 12.5:1.
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Old 05-09-2015, 03:45 PM
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Default Mufflers

I have just recently bought some Flowmaster Slimline mufflers 13530320,like a HP2, these are 4 1/2 OD and have 3 1/2 ID listed and are made of 304 , the internal hole is a lot smaller than expected maybe 2 1/4- 2 1/2 cant measure properly , you have to tig weld your own ends on . Car is still quite loud, actually 1 db less , I tried a different exit pipe that had a 2 1/2 inside the 3 1/2 that exits inwards and down that made the car 5 db quieter , OK on the road but not so good for dusty /shingle drive ways , Haven't gone back to dyno to see if the 408 makes more or less that 554 flywheel HP .The air cleaner I designed and had machined cost me 5KW it is an 11x3 made into an oval , the EFI throttle bodies have bigger linkages to clear ,It is hard to do much else .Cheers

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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2015, 12:33 AM
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Knowing your crank hp and rear wheel horsepower shows what is typical for driveline loss.

25-30% would be considered normal.

To get your 450 rwhp, you'll need about 600 flywheel.

Also shows how many dynos lie.

Compression pressure is related to compression ratio AND cam timing.

Does your mechanic know what cam you have before stating it should have "xyz" compression pressure?
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2015, 08:01 AM
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My car has 3" I'd sidepipes.....at the track if I remove them and run with open headers there was a gain of about 2 seconds a lap.....on a 1 minute track......
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2015, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaz64 View Post
Knowing your crank hp and rear wheel horsepower shows what is typical for driveline loss.

25-30% would be considered normal.

To get your 450 rwhp, you'll need about 600 flywheel.

Also shows how many dynos lie.

Compression pressure is related to compression ratio AND cam timing.

Does your mechanic know what cam you have before stating it should have "xyz" compression pressure?
All I'm going off of is what the engine builders dyno showed which off the top of my head let's say 591 hp. I'm not to judge whether that is a legitimate number or not but that's what the dyno sheet says so that's what we are going off of. I have the engine build sheet and the tuner has the cam size....we also spoke to the engine builder which stated it should have 175-180lb per cylinder and we got readings of 150-160lb. This motor has 11k miles on it and it was running insanely rich so both the tuner and builder diagnosed it with the cylinders been washed down. The tuners just said it didn't have the seat of the pants pull it should have and when it go to the WOT pulls it just wasn't in the ballpark of where similar setups have been. I'm going to keep a close eye on the oil level and enjoy it the rest of the season. When I'm ready we will pull the motor and do what's necessary. Atleast now it's tuned correctly and is running much better
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Old 05-10-2015, 05:16 PM
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ACE,

Is your car fast enough? Do you feel you have enough power. If the answer is yes, leave the engine alone and drive. I had a number of stroked 351 to 427's and they all used a quart every 1K to 1.5K miles. Who gives a sheet. Washing cylinder down, yea in 100k miles. Try a different compression gauge and eventually it will read what you want.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2015, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by madmaxx View Post
ACE,

Is your car fast enough? Do you feel you have enough power. If the answer is yes, leave the engine alone and drive. I had a number of stroked 351 to 427's and they all used a quart every 1K to 1.5K miles. Who gives a sheet. Washing cylinder down, yea in 100k miles. Try a different compression gauge and eventually it will read what you want.
All good points and the initial negativity of the results have kinda settled. I'm going to enjoy the car watch the oil level and just drive it. for awhile When the oil was changed it took 10 quarts of oil to get above the add line on the dip stick so that is my new benchmark to make sure my level is correct. Is it fast enough....not really but that's no reason to go haul off and spend money until I'm ready to decide the changes I want. It felt great tonight to hit the starter one time and the thing fire right up.....it was a hassle before. What makes you think the cylinders were not in the process of being washed down? The carb looked like an ash try and the plugs were gunked up black.....not to mention the compression test results.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2015, 07:38 PM
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Be carful with 10 quarts. Every single engine i had the dipstick was wrong by over a quart. the only way to know for sure is drop the pan, fill with water until below windage tray then reinstall and fill with oil and mark dipstick. that being said the oil pump pickup is 1/2" off the bottom of the pan so you have some room to play. If you have a high volume oil pump than you better have enough oil but not to much that it foams. I know you would think it would be simple but it never is.

Lets say you had wash down, which i doubt, it would still take 50K plus miles to know a difference. Sheet two stroke engines use gasoline as a lubricant mixed with 50:1 oil, lol. There is always somebody to take your money.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2015, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace23 View Post
Compression test results are 1-150lb, 2-160lb, 3-160lb, 4-160lb, 5-155lb, 6-160lb, 7-162lb, 8-160lb cranking with a brand new optima red top. I spoke to the engine shop and they said it should be 175-180lb per cylinder and that the last tuner back in 09 must have simply tuned the car too rich and this is a result of washing the rings.
you need to contact keith craft, and ask him, as he built the engine, knows the cam, and what the static compression numbers should be.

years ago, at one of the cobra builders/ engine shops, I had some work done on my FE 427 (429 displacement), and got 455 rwhp. That same cobra/engine builder had installed numerous roush 427r's, and I think the best rwhp he ever got from any of the crate roush 427r's, was around 420, even after dyno tuning with the best side pipes. So, it depends a lot upon the dyno.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:02 PM
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Be carful with 10 quarts. Every single engine i had the dipstick was wrong by over a quart. the only way to know for sure is drop the pan, fill with water until below windage tray then reinstall and fill with oil and mark dipstick. that being said the oil pump pickup is 1/2" off the bottom of the pan so you have some room to play. If you have a high volume oil pump than you better have enough oil but not to much that it foams. I know you would think it would be simple but it never is.

Lets say you had wash down, which i doubt, it would still take 50K plus miles to know a difference. Sheet two stroke engines use gasoline as a lubricant mixed with 50:1 oil, lol. There is always somebody to take your money.
Yes you would think it would be simple enough that a freaking oil dip stick would be accurate. Atleast at this point I know what 10 quarts looks like on the stick and not to exceed that. The tuner was great and had nothing to gain from steering me in the wrong direction per his findings.....but I know what your point is. Hey its got a nice 12.5 AFT at WOT and was tuned at part throttle as well. Just going to let her rip for right now. I've got to get the dyno sheet but the torque curve was pretty strange looking as well. My car has a Victor Jr on it and some 2" headers so I'm sure that plays into the mix. For comparison the tuner was showing me some other dyno sheets of 427 street cars with smaller primary headers and dual planes that had 50-75 more torque under the curve. Interesting visit for sure and glad I made the trip
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
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you need to contact keith craft, and ask him, as he built the engine, knows the cam, and what the static compression numbers should be.
I thought he said in his first post the engine is a Roush 427R, not a Keith Craft engine????????

As far as the 10 quarts go,that seems like a lot,but you can easily find out,most A/M oil pans (canton for sure) have the parts number on them, easy to see if the car is on a lift, check what type pan it is,take a few measurements if you can't find the part number and look up on their site and you should be able to get the capacity........

I've never seen a Canton SBF pan that held more than 8 quarts,too much oil can be as bad as too little oil......
I have a Canton 8 quart road race pan on my race car and a remote larger than normal filter with 12AN lines,probably a total 8 or more feet of lines and it only holds 10.5 quarts and that's including the oil cooler......my filter alone holds 1.5 quarts........

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Old 05-10-2015, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
you need to contact keith craft, and ask him, as he built the engine, knows the cam, and what the static compression numbers should be.

years ago, at one of the cobra builders/ engine shops, I had some work done on my FE 427 (429 displacement), and got 455 rwhp. That same cobra/engine builder had installed numerous roush 427r's, and I think the best rwhp he ever got from any of the crate roush 427r's, was around 420, even after dyno tuning with the best side pipes. So, it depends a lot upon the dyno.
I called Keith's shop and spend about 15 minutes on the phone with them. they said 175-180 per cylinder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD View Post
I thought he said in his first post the engine is a Roush 427R, not a Keith Craft engine????????

As far as the 10 quarts go,that seems like a lot,but you can easily find out,most A/M oil pans (canton for sure) have the parts number on them, easy to see if the car is on a lift, check what type pan it is,take a few measurements if you can't find the part number and look up on their site and you should be able to get the capacity........

I've never seen a Canton SBF pan that held more than 8 quarts,too much oil can be as bad as too little oil......
I have a Canton 8 quart road race pan on my race car and a remote larger than normal filter with 12AN lines,probably a total 8 or more feet of lines and it only holds 10.5 quarts and that's including the oil cooler......my filter alone holds 1.5 quarts........

David
It is a Keith Craft. Didn't look on the pan when I was under it but the original build info from 2004 has a Canton 15660C listed....I looked it up and I've found the 15660C to have a 7 quart capacity. I've got an oil cooler on the car. That damn dip stick was dead at the bottom of the add line at 9 quarts. Will check it tomorrow to see where the oil level with the 10 quarts in it.
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