Dissapointing year end with my Roush 427R

[Jamo]

Well, maybe a little.

But hey, neat thing about this place is that we all bring a little something to the table. In the Cobra world and in everyday life, I'm a consumer just like anybody else, and I have to live with the same rules about warranties that everyone else does...whether it's a computer or an FE. I also know that at some point, all companies need to be able to fix their costs on each product they sell. That's the fine balance that needs to be drawn when providing a warranty...serving the interests of your customer base to maintain your business while at the same time putting a reasonable cap on possible claims. How good is a line if folks keep stepping over it? Where does it end?

Course, if folks would pay a bit more attention to protecting themselves in the first place, y'all wouldn't need no stinkin lawyers.

[Clois Harlan]

Let's face it guys our cars are not daily drivers with very few exceptions. If the engines we bought to put in our cars were all tamed down to daily driver standards we probably wouldn't want them. Some of us go with a little cam and some go for a lot more. In some cases we are at the edge trying to decide between performance and reliabilty.

In my eleven or so years of Cobra ownership I have had my issues too. Dean Lampe and I had two 427 S.O. built by a guy with a long history of building performance FE engines and an excellent reputation (not Keith Craft or George Anderson). We spent a lot more than a good amount of money on these engines. Each was dyno'd and properly broken in. Our first miles were put on the engines at a race track and not a full out thrashing, in fact we put in RPM limiters to prevent us from going past 5000 RPMs. The bottom line....in 3 easy laps Deans engine was toast (full of bearing material) mine lasted another 15 mins. No warrenty at all. As fate would have it the builder was at the track when all this happened, he agreed to provide free labor and that is it. Dean accepted and I didn't. That was five years ago. My engine is still being thrashed around at open track events and ocassionaly on the street and I have no problems. Yep it leaks a little and runs a little rich but I know it will break sometime and when it does I will fix it. These engines receive more abuse from being seldom driven than if they were daily drivers.

I think it all comes down to the fact that $hit Happens sometimes and when it does we want someone to blame...by the way, I am just as guilty when it comes to wanting to hold someone accountable regardless of the amount of time since the warrenty. But, I do believe most of our suppliers try and provide a good product but there will always be some weak spots here or there. Sorry for your mis-fortune with your engine.

Just some thoughts from another Cobra owner.

Clois Harlan

[Jamo]

Good luck.

As to any expected war of words, you presume too much. I have neither the time nor the inclination.

[Jamo]

twobjshelbys

Back off a bit...the conversation is between the threadstarter and David, about the threadstarter's problem. You've gone through the details of your issues several times in other threads.

Thanks.

[PANAVIA]

Steve Wood here from Mustang Ranch - We have dealt with our friends at Roush with favorable results, negotiating the warranty and technical process.

Mark is a good guy, and I have dealt with him many times on engine issues.

However, as much as a company offers a warranty in good faith, they are beholden to whatever is the current manufacturing status of almost any part.

we have seen with all crate motor and engine builders the opportunity for things to go wrong, and not because of a human or machine error in assembly - the problem was months , if not years before in a factory somewhere, probably not in the 48 states.

It is not because they dont want to , it is usually it cannot be obtained in the USA.
Or quality control on parts from NAFTA isnt as high as it should be -

Case in point Ford had us pull and replace a crate motor of theirs as the center oiling feed hole to the thrust bearing was 1/2 occluded by a bearing surface ( the top of the thrust bearing ) and it went through 2 crankshafts before we were involved.

Turned out that whoever drills the holes was off , and on the BOSS engine block line there are no optical inspectors ( digital cameras that look for proper holes ) and angles - so this one slipped through.

We have many stories like this - the Roush guys, Ford guys and shelby engine guys ( Now under Denbeste ) all want to provide the best motors for our Saturday cars, and they expend countless hours ( and I do mean countless ) trying to get the best products out there for the community.

However, sometimes things dont go their way and they are the victim of a poor part form a vendor that sometimes was made 1 to 2 years before it shows up in an engine. -- if it were a production road car with thousands of examples, running tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles, the feedback would be more in tune with some of the expectations see in notes above.

We are mostly dealing with manufactured antiques, and setting modern expectations on them - I cant think of a better recipe for failing to meet your desire.

well built, competently installed , with good support and with a bit of luck, it is one of the best motoring experiences available anywhere.

--Now dont get me started on crankshafts. -- Rant off.

Steve Wood

[madmaxx]

Disclaimer - I am no engine expert, lawyer, and very ignorant. Can somebody explain to me what would cause a dog bone to fail. The ones I have seen are pretty stout and I ASSUMED their purpose was to prevent lifter rotation. Looking at retro lifter the anti-rotation bar they have is a fraction of the thickness of a dog bones on the engines I have seen.

[james911pro]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Disclaimer - I am no engine expert, lawyer, and very ignorant. Can somebody explain to me what would cause a dog bone to fail. The ones I have seen are pretty stout and I ASSUMED their purpose was to prevent lifter rotation. Looking at retro lifter the anti-rotation bar they have is a fraction of the thickness of a dog bones on the engines I have seen.

MadMax, I didnt know what they were until now either but the do hold the lifters in place then the spider holds them in place... per the info I got.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Disclaimer - I am no engine expert, lawyer, and very ignorant. Can somebody explain to me what would cause a dog bone to fail. The ones I have seen are pretty stout and I ASSUMED their purpose was to prevent lifter rotation. Looking at retro lifter the anti-rotation bar they have is a fraction of the thickness of a dog bones on the engines I have seen.

Could be an issue with too much lift on the cam...or maybe it was just a weak dogbone as cast.

[james911pro]

If anyone is interested I have posted the pic of the piece of the dogbone found in the oil pan and damaged to the cam.

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by james911pro

If anyone is interested I have posted the pic of the piece of the dogbone found in the oil pan and damaged to the cam.

Where is the pic?

[madmaxx]

Click on the portrait pic and the are in there.
If you take your finger and slide it across the cam lobe do you feel an edge or lip at the edge of where the roller rides?
Do any of the other lobes have damage?
Its hard to see the damage on the cam in your pic.

[madmaxx]

If there is no roughness on the cam the discoloration is irrelevant. If there no damage to cam pull the intake, replace lifter and dog bone and reassemble. About 2 hrs of easy work, your back on the road.

[james911pro]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

If there is no roughness on the cam the discoloration is irrelevant. If there no damage to cam pull the intake, replace lifter and dog bone and reassemble. About 2 hrs of easy work, your back on the road.

MadMax, there is palpable damge to the cam. It still requires removing the engine to do it properly...and that still does solve my oil burning problems though . Nor does it cover me for $$$ for the whole job. I am a bit more worried about the oil problem after reading the other posts.

[olddog]

Have a good look at the intake manifold gaskets when they come off. You can pull in oil with a leaky gasket. Maybe you will get lucky and find that the engine itself (rings/ valve seals) are in good shape.

[james911pro]

Originally Posted by olddog

Have a good look at the intake manifold gaskets when they come off. You can pull in oil with a leaky gasket. Maybe you will get lucky and find that the engine itself (rings/ valve seals) are in good shape.

..yep thats what I would like to "hope" for instead of rings etc. But I am really hoping for Roush to step in and give it a full rebuild!....

[Dimis]

My late granddad always said, "If you can't say somethin' nice, then say nothing at all."

My experience with Roush has only been with one SBF.

But with this in mind, I can only say... Roush do have some mighty fine looking valve & air intake covers.

[CBattaglia]

Having been through my fair share of engine problems and put some thought into the situation, here is my simple solution.

The problem usually seems to be that the warranty expires after a year (or two with the bigger builders). With daily drivers that is adequate. However, most of us just put on a few thousand miles a year. So when an engine that is 3 years old with 4,000 miles on it goes bad we have a problem. The builder is completely within his rights to say they are not responsible but the customer has an essentially new motor that has gone bad.

If there was a, i dont know, 5,000 or 7000 mile caveat on the warranty maybe there would be less consumers feeling slighted. Maybe the number is more, i dont know. I dont see why any major engine components should fail within that number of miles. If it does, then there is a problem with the builder or the components they are using.

What should a consumer expect out of their engine? SHOULD this guy be OK with the performance of his engine? Can the builder really say that this is an exceptable out come when buying one of thier products?

[james911pro]

PART 2
Well.. I`m Back with and update but not a good one unfortunately.
After haggling with the warranty dept, I fianlly got the to take back the engine for a rebuild. That being said I had to pay for the shipping labour and parts at "cost"..but I would get a 3 month warranty. Once they disassembled the engine the reported "oval cylinders" and confirmed this was not caused by any misuse or abuse on my part... YES my first question was also then it should be under warranty!!..NOPE guess again.

It was recommended to me that the block be replaced along with the rings (kept the pistons).. gaskets etc. All said and done it cost me ANOTHER 4736.50$

I asked that the engine be cleaned and returnes as new.. it came back unpolished and dirty.

I cleaned it and re-installed it. I followed the break in porcedures to a "T" but right out of the gate she was burning oil again. I remained in constant communication with Roush to keep them up to date. I even went as far as sending them a video of the vivid BLUE smoke exiting the pipes on acceleration and when I let off. They did not contest the proof and considering our Canadian climate I kept the engine in and continued to drive it adding oil and gas. I removed it at the end of the season and am ready to ship her back. My dilema is what to do. I dont want this engine back it has a bad omen to it.

Does anyone know why this engine could still be burning oil??? bad intake? seals?? the rings are new... doesn't seem to be compressing in the base... it is burning more oil than before the rebuild. 1/2 pint per tank of gas. I was using the recommend oil weight from Roush 10w30.

Please help, I am getting ready to send the engine back and I would like to hear from any pro engine builders or people who have experience the same trouble. thanks!!!

[Varmit]

I can only give you my experience. Mine is a Roush 427SR, it burned quite a bit of oil. I pulled the heads, and had them checked. The valve stems were worn, and could actually see a "lip" at the beginning of the worn area. I had the valves replaced with feria's (sp) that were slightly larger. The heads were cleaned, new valve seats, up put back on the engine, and all is fine, no oil consumption, no smoke when letting off the throttle. Runs really good, and I have no complaints.

Wish you the best of luck on your situation!!!

[jhv48]

And here's my update from my 2011 post.
The oil consumption got progressively worse. At 13,500 miles intake gasket let go. After replacement and new valve guides and seals, oil was blowing out the breather and dipstick tube. Piston blowby. Leak down test showed two cylinders excessive. Tore down the engine. Two pistons had small cracks in the ring lands. Lifters worn, cylinders showed no crosshatch. Looked like the engine had 100,000 miles on it. Total rebuild and valve job needed to the tune of $15,000.
After the rebuild and a good dyno tune, runs stronger than it ever did.

Would I ever recommend or buy another Roush product? Nope. This is a total street engine and was maintained meticulously. My feeling is that it should have lasted a little longer. But that's just my opinion.