ProAutosports At Firebird This Weekend

[need4speed]

Just spent a wonderful sunny Arizona day at Firebird today with the Lister, my son, and my son-in-law. Well it was mostly wonderful until I came around turn 3 in the last session of the day and was greeted by the blinding sun that had just peeked out of the clouds. Could not see a dang thing and totally blew turn 4! Thankfully it is a slow spot on the track and I was able to avoid any damage or injury, except for my ego. Wonder who will believe the lame old excuse that the "sun was in my eyes?"

Lots of nice cars on the track including several Cobras, a Daytona Coupe, a small cadre of Lotus Elise/Extige cars, a couple of Radicals, couple'o Z06 Vettes, a pretty quick old Porsche 911 Targa, a very nicely prepared Capri, and what I think was a pretty nice old Datsun 510. Not to mention the open wheel cars and other race classes as well. There was also a red Ford GT innocently sitting trackside that never joined the fun and the most action that I saw out of it was as it left for the day.

If you have time to participate or just drop by they are running the rest of the weekend. Next event is December 16.

[mannyjoe]

I had the Daytona Coupe there to take the DE class and I had a blast. BTW your Lister is absolutely beautiful. Extremely exotic looking and it corners nice and flat, form and function.
I should be running with the red group on the 16th and I hope to see you there.
mannyjoe

[Slither]

Careful running with ProAutoSports. Hope you never hit anything or get hit running on a parking lot style track, especially with half filled water barrels. Just my .02!

[need4speed]

Mannyjoe - Thanks for the kind words. I almost built the then just released FFR Daytona Coupe instead of the Lister, it is a great car as well. I plan to be out there again on the 16th so I will drop by and take a better look at your car and say hey.

Slither - I also hope I never hit anything or get hit but am not sure why you think it is any different with ProAutosports than any other organization. Parking lot style track? The 3 tracks at Firebird are far from that classification. They are all purpose built and actively used by a variety of racing organizations like NASA, not to mention professional race teams for testing a variety of cars up to and including IRL and CART. They all have very good run off areas and almost no walls to speak of. Even PIR has some walls that you need to be carful of. In the couple of years that I have been around ProAutosports there have been very few incidents and if memory serves me I think there was only 1 wreck in the last year. Not a bad record in my opinion.

[Mulv]

Originally Posted by need4speed

Mannyjoe - Thanks for the kind words. I almost built the then just released FFR Daytona Coupe instead of the Lister, it is a great car as well. I plan to be out there again on the 16th so I will drop by and take a better look at your car and say hey.

Slither - I also hope I never hit anything or get hit but am not sure why you think it is any different with ProAutosports than any other organization. Parking lot style track? The 3 tracks at Firebird are far from that classification. They are all purpose built and actively used by a variety of racing organizations like NASA, not to mention professional race teams for testing a variety of cars up to and including IRL and CART. They all have very good run off areas and almost no walls to speak of. Even PIR has some walls that you need to be carful of. In the couple of years that I have been around ProAutosports there have been very few incidents and if memory serves me I think there was only 1 wreck in the last year. Not a bad record in my opinion.

Ask Bernie... better yet see if you can find Larry Pond on the internet as a racer....

[Slither]

Right, Mulv.
I realize that the Firebird tracks are used for TESTING and TESTING ONLY by IRL and CART teams. But they shouldn't be used for side by side racing. They are far too narrow to allow SAFE racing, door handle to door handle. And no, these are parking lot style race courses if you have to go around pylons and half filled water barrels. I would be willing to bet that NASA wouldn't use these tracks if AMP was in operation! Check your memory a little closer, there was an incident with a Mini Cooper tapping a Mustang in the tunnel turn on the main track last February causing a huge wreck and one of the stock cars had an incident down in turn one on the same weekend on the Main track. Want to talk about safety with ProAutoSports? When was the last official driver's meeting at an event with ProAutoSports? ---Never! They don't believe in it. When was the last time your car, and everybody elses, went through a tech inspection before a race with ProAutoSports? --- Never! They don't believe in it! Plus, the promoter has a little trouble with the truth and doesn't have the best reputation around racing in general. Ask around out of the ProAutoSports circle, you'll see!

[need4speed]

Well it appears you have more background on this than I do and I will cede that you may know more than I on things that have occurred with ProAutosports in the past. But my memory is fine, like I said I do recall an incident in the last year, which you cite above but since I was not there that day I had no specific details. I never heard about the stock car, was that self inflicted or caused by another driver? I hope everyone was ok.

I suppose that is one of the risks in any track event by any organization at any track and if I saw that an organization had a very poor accident record I would be inclined to stay away. Based on my almost 2 years in ProAutosports as well as things that I have been told by others who run both ProAutosports and NASA for a very long time, this is not the case.

I do only participate in the HPDE activity which is more like practice/testing and is not what I would call side by side racing. At the end of the day all I can say is that at every event that I have participated in with ProAutosports there have not been any incidents and I have no issues with how the HPDE events have been run.

I suppose the backside of the main track is somewhat like the parking lot scenario that you describe but the east track or west track do not quite fit that description. Also regardless of AMP being closed, which still has me miffed, if the Firebird tracks are unsafe NASA would not be running there, they would not assume that risk. Now that I think about it, I guess Sebring is also a bit of a big parking lot so they should probably stop racing there as well.

I will not debate your comments on Larry Pond's reputation, he is not on this forum to defend himself.

I started this thread as the result of having a great time enjoying a day at the track and wanting to share it with others on this forum and now it has digressed into something that all I can say is quite different than my intent. Evidently you do not care for ProAutosports and I am at a loss why you even read this posting titled with their name.

[Slither]

No, no, no! Please continue racing with ProAutoSports and NASA and have a good time in doing so. Please have fun and just be aware,, and most of all, be CAREFUL. I just want to caution you and others about some of ProAutoSports careless practices. I.E., no drivers meetings, no tech inspections, a huge lack of corrner marshalls, very narrow tracks and so on. It's true, most of the drivers don't report too many incidences. Most of them are just rubbing fenders and a few bent bumpers. It is up to the individual involved drivers to handle any damage between themselves. But if something major occurs, look out. Just imagine one of the young ten year old go carters smacking a half filled water barrel at full speed. Ugly! For the most part, it can be a lot of fun. But for our own personal reasons, some of us won't ever go back to ProAutoSports. I am not alone here. The reason why NASA and ProAutoSports run at Firebird is because it is only one of two local tracks to race on. The other track is obviously PIR. ProAutoSports is banned from running at PIR. Years ago, the ProAutoSports promoter and NASA were one big happy family. Then something happened amongst the ranks and L.P. went out on his own. They never kissed and made up!
I didn't want to discourage you from running with ProAutoSports. Like I said before, I just wanted you to be aware and be careful. Read between the lines the next time you sign up for a day with ProAutoSports.
To answer your question, the stock car expected a slower car to let him by and didn't. ProAutoSports has a habit of joining classes with huge speed differences. The stock car driver had to take evasive action to avoid hitting the slower car and ended up ON TOP of the tire barrier in turn one on the main course. I watched it all from on top of the foot bridge. In fact, there is so much carnage on the main track that Bondurant's instructors are not allowed to instruct on the main course. The East course has it's excitement as well. I have seen cars contact the sand pit just past the start/finish and flip and roll. I have seen street cars smash in to the tire barriers approaching the first turn along the freeway, as well as race cars. I guess that the West track is the safest of all three. However, it gets it's share of crashes, too. I have witnessed an open wheeler upside down on top of the tire barriers in turn three. So don't believe that it doesn't happen. You just don't always see it or hear about it. Just because the promoter tells you that he has the safest racing record in the world doesn't mean that he does. Check it out yourself. I have seen your Lister before. It is a very beautiful car. Take care of it and don't let it get banged up on some parking lot style track!
Please don't let my own personal comments keep you from racing (or driving) with ProAutoSports. Just PLEASE be CAREFUL when you do!
I read this post because it caught my eye and just wanted to make you aware and did not intend to ruin your time on the track. If I did so, I deeply apologize!!! If you care to talk about this further, we can do so at Hershall's Christmas Party, if you are planning to attend, in a couple of weeks.

[need4speed]

Thanks for all the additional details, this is becoming quite a learning experience for me and is one of the termendous benefits of this forum. Sorry if I got a bit defensive, its one of those things that are a bit too easy to do without having all the facts. I do appreciate the time that you have taken to explain where you are coming from and I am sure the numerous others who are watching this thread are also learning a lot. I do plan on finishing up the year with ProAutosports since there is only 1 more event but when I look to sign up for a new membership next year I will take this all into consideration in deciding which organization to join or not.

Thanks again.

[JB34]

I read this post about a week ago and, while it upset me a lot, I could not decide to let it slide (because I sold my cobra a while back and do not participate with the group anymore) or respond. As I still love Cobras and still attend many local track events (ASRA, NASA, PAS and SCCA), I feel compelled to throw in my 2 cents.

Need4speed started this post because he had a great time on a “real” race track. He got to spend time with his friends and family driving his high performance street car safely at speeds considerably greater than the legal street/highway limits. He got pumped up and his stoke level was high; he wanted to share his good fun with his buddies. I know just how he feels, for if you remember back to February of 2004, I organized a High Performance Driver Education day for the club. It was held at Firebird East. 16 cars showed up for the school group, several members ran in the RED (intermediate) group and 4 of us ran in the Green (advanced) group. I know you were there Bill, because I remember seeing you spin out in turn 1. I was behind you and I think I still have the video.

I organized this event so that other members of our club could learn to become better drivers … AND…to experience the thrill of driving a Cobra as it was originally intended…ON A RACE TRACK!

I am a member of ASRA and NASA and have worked as an instructor for all three. I chose Professional Auto Sports to host this venue for several reasons. In addition to their race groups, they offer street car sessions with strict rules of conduct. These are VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE RACE GROUPS WHICH YOU REFER, Bill.

• The Performance Driving Program is run by a Certified Teacher of the State of Arizona Department of Education.
•This program is recognized by the auto insurance industry as a driving school NOT a racing school
•Adequate corner workers are on every station. These folks are ONLY observers and Not part of the Safety Crew. Emphasis on SAFETY!
•All Safety Workers are certified paramedics and fire fighters led by a retired Battalion Chief from the City of Phoenix Fire Department.
•There are THREE teams of these Safety Crews around the track and ready to move should there be any incident.

As for Firebird being a “parking lot style race course” where you have to go around pylons and half filled water barrels, that is “far to narrow to allow SAFE racing’, well…let’s examine the facts.

•The minimum standard for race tracks is 35’ wide. All THREE of the tracks at Firebird are wider than this, mostly 45’wide.
•So if the average car is 8’ wide, you could get 5 of them side by side. Too Narrow? Even so, I would rather rub a door panel with another car going in the same direction on the track at speed then face a soccer mom in a suburban at 25 mph on some city street.
•Furthermore, going back to the rules for street cars, there is no racing; only high performance driving where the passing driver is responsible for a safe, clean pass.
•You drive at your own speed at your own comfort level. If someone is faster than you, move over and point them by.
•The cones at Firebird are not actually on the course, but placed off the track and visible for the students to learn where the proper braking zones are and the proper apex points. Cones have a tendency to move and race groups don’t use them.
•If you want to drive around cones on a parking lot course, then I suggest you try SCCA Solo events.
•As for the half filled water barrels, they are universally used as impact barriers that have a controlled crush rate using both water or sand as the material. If these are good enough for Indianapolis Motor Speedway, they’re good enough for Firebird.
•Firebird Main was host to a SCCA Professional Trans Am race.
•Firebird West was host to ASA Speed Truck professional race.

All of us who like to drive on race tracks would never dream of a comparison to some to the great tracks is Northern Cal or Road America or Road Atlanta, but then few of us have the resources you do Bill to make those trips. BTW…what a great trailer.

I have been a member of Professional Auto Sports since 2001 and have had many great track days with them. I have a great respect for Larry and his organization and plan to continue running with confidence that my safety will not be compromised by the tracks at Firebird or any member of the PAS staff.

I would recommend to anyone interested in taking their car onto the track to investigate the track and the governing body before making any final decision and, above all, make sure that your car is mechanically sound and drive within yourself.

I have never met need4speed, but live in Mesa and have seen the car cruising down Baseline. Keep going to the track and enjoy that car.

Brian has invited me to ride with him to the event at PIR on the 10th, so look us up if you guys feel like you need to smell some race fuel. I’m bringing him a nice cigar in hopes that he might let me drive that green monster again.

Any of you guys remember this cover shot?

[Slither]

JB34,
I welcome your opinion with open arms. But just like mine, it is only an opinion. I hope need4speed and anyone else enjoys their cars to their fullest extent at these types of events. My comment and opinion was to "make aware" of new drivers at PASA events. Plus, there are a lot of things that have happened at PASA that you are not aware of and I can not and will not elaborate on them. Sorry about that!
You are right. Stupid, careless ME spun my Cobra in turn 1 on the East track on the first lap of a passenger session on ice cold tires. I should have known better. That served as a warning to me and I learned from it. However, that was a turn that was extremely tight, more than 90 degrees and flat as hell. You also never seen me run the car on any other track at Firebird, have you?
I am not trying to pick your arguement apart, but you are 100% incorrect on a few statements.
1. There IS NOT a corner worker at every station. In fact, we have run on main with as little as three workers watching the entire race course. That is far from adequate!
2. There ARE NOT always three safety crews around any of the three tracks at Firebird race tracks. I have seen at least two, but not always three.
3. "Adequate" corner workers would be individuals that have been instructed on how to properly man a corner station. It's not as easy as it looks. I was asked once, and did man turn 1 on the East course without any instructions on how or what to do. Although common sense and being around racing helps to get you by. I have also been asked to serve as an instructor at a PASA event because PASA was short on instructors. I don't have ANY experience in instructing a student on how to drive a high performance car or a race car. The truth is I have only competed in one race with PASA and I won the race beating Larry Pond's son. And my car was LEGAL! I sold the car after that event because I felt that it was too dangerous racing on the main track at Firebird. I was right.
4. All THREE of Firebird's tracks ARE NOT a minimum of 35 feet wide around the entire course. Take for instance, the entrance to the tunnel turn on the main track. It is narrow there because they have lined the insides of both inside and outside guard rails with used tires.
5. Race group drivers do use the cones and barrels while racing. In fact, the go carters use the half filled barrels of water to go around. PASA does NOT remove the cones and barrels for race groups and put them back for high performance groups. Indianapolis DOES NOT use the half filled barrels to go around like it is used with PASA in place of a cone. I have seen PASA replace a cone with a half filled barrel because drivers were knocking the cones out of the way enabling them a better line around the corner. I have seen mirrors torn off by driver's clipping the barrels. (yes, that is true) That applied for high performance driving as well as race groups. PASA owns those barrels, not Firebird. They ARE NOT intended for impact barriers with PASA.
Like I stated before, PASA does not hold driver's meetings or has any tech inspections at their events. I do not want to keep anyone from enjoying their day(s) with PASA at Firebird Raceway. It is a great and wonderful way to experience high performance drfiving. MY point was simple; BE CAREFUL!!! As you have stated to others, go out to the track and investigate how the event is run and check out who is running the thing. Read the fine print and between the lines on the paper that you sign when you plop down your hard earned money to learn how to drive fast, properly. That goes for any organization. Please, just be careful!
Thanks for the comment on the trailer. The truck and trailer are back in Indiana right now having some warranty issues tended to.
I hope you understand that I was not trying to take the wind out of need4speed's sails. But again, it is only my opinion. Not everybody has a wonderful experience with everything, right? Things happen!
JB34, were you out at PIR this past weekend for the SCCA event? I didn't see you. There was a lot of great racing going on.
Thanks for your two cents. I didn't mean to upset you either!

[mannyjoe]

OK. I just have to comment here, I wanted the oppurtunity to experience my Coupe in a safe environment at some higher speeds. The people at the track were very friendly and very helpful. I ran on the friday after Thanksgiving and had a great time.
The instructor who rode with me was very helpful, made suggestions, and very patient with me, as I do not do turns well, I mostly prefer drag racing, so this was very new to me. I had a great experience and am looking forward to going back on Dec.16th and running with the red group.
This venue suited my needs very well and it looks like a good way to experience higher speeds and get some seat time in a controlled envirnment. This is much safer and much more socially responsible than exploring these limits on a public highway.
mannyjoe

[BPWilliams]

I also have run with SCCA, PASA, and NASA and can say from experience that PASA runs a tight ship. Now did I have fun with all three YOU BET! However, running with NASA at AMO it did get crazy with the ricers spinning out right in front of me. I am not willing to put my car in harms way like that so I quickly learned to point them by to give space or pass them and quickly leave them behind. Fact was that theis was not a NASA issue it was the boneheads on the track not following the rules and bad driving.

I like all three groups and the people that run with them, but like I said PASA does run the tightest ship and time after time the results were the same we stuck to the schedule and everybody had fun!

I hate to see post like this take a left turn when what we are really discussing is having fun on the track, not with who. I can say that time has not let me play enough in the past two years and I plan on making it up soon.

Jim you can drive the green machine anytime you want, there are not many people I would offer that up to, so enjoy. Oh and yes it will cost you a good cigar!

Just have fun!

[JB34]

That's what makes this a great country...we have the right to disagree. I guess we will kick it around again at some future date.

I missed the event last weekend as I was at a convention in Lost Wages Nevada. I was donating my paycheck to help build a new casino. I did attend the ASRA event the week before working in Wade's pit crew for the enduro. He still has not replaced the motor in the cobra but ran his spec racer. I will be at PIR on the 10th to watch my nephew run him M5. If you come out, look for Brian's green meany. Maybe we can arm wrestle or something. C ya

[ItBites]

I gotta say that I am not sure what Bill's point is here. He, like some others in the Valley, has an issue with Larry Pond. I know some of the things Larry is reviled for by some folks, but frankly, I don't care. The issues I am aware of are not safety related, nor do I know of anyone who blames Larry or PASA for the incidents Bill has described. I don't know everyone, but the ones I know who have been involved in incidents pretty much chalk it up to racing (or blame the other driver equally as often). All of the complaints I know about with Larry Pond revolve around the race classes and his business operation. All of us drive in the green or red group and I really haven't heard much complaint about those classes.

Larry runs a group that allows me to get my car out on the track. I have lived other places that do not have groups like PASA and I can tell you that having PASA is better than having nothing. I am also a NASA and ASRA (since 1992) member and I am glad that PASA is at least a going-enough entity to offer more than a few track days per year. Before PASA (or SAAC before that), there were years here where three or four track days was all that were available. Having the choice to go out to a PASA event is better than no choice to track your car.

If you don't like PASA, don't drive with them, but don't try to convince the rest of us that we should beware Larry or PASA. My relation with PASA has been satisfactory and I really don't need you trying to dampen my or our enthusiasm about taking these cars out to the track. I show-up, drive the car, go home, end of story. Frankly, I don't care if PASA uses barrels. If you want to keep your mirrors, you have the choice to hit the barrels or not. Usually this sort of thing occurs as a result of driving past your capability - your choice. Every track has "intricacies" that can bite you - it is up to you how you drive and what you hit. And I'll bet you a donut that the tunnel of death (tunnel turn on the main track) IS 45' wide. I hate that corner and so I slow down a little, but that is a choice I make - however making that choice allows me to continue to participate...

Is there the possibility of danger? - yes. Can things happen with multiple cars at speed? - yes. We know this, thanks mom...

I am willing to take the risk, such as it is, to drive in a manner that I love and cannot do without track events. I also choose to control the level of that risk by not driving beyond my capabilities and being aware of what other drivers are doing.

I will continue to enjoy my track days with whatever group has track openings that align with my schedule, even PASA.

[scott coyle]

Guys,

I have run open track events with lots of different organizations, PASA, NASA, COCOA, NWCC, etc.. Your safety is pretty much dependent on you. I mean that in the way you drive and the decisions you make. If somebody is on your tail, point them by. If you don't want to go off track, slow down. Most incidents occur, allthough rarely, when your own ego gets in the way, ask me how I know.

I am a big endorser of track events for cobra guys. One it allows you to drive your cobra fast in a relatively safe enviroment. Is it totally safe, no. Is it ten times safer than going fast on the street, YES it is. Two, you get to know your cobra better and how it behaves at the limit when you have gone too fast. That way when it happens on the street, which is now less likely because you realize how unsafe the street is for fast cobra's, you can catch the car before you hit somebody or something.

As for PASA, I would say there events are generally safer than nasa or azra. All 3 organizations do a great job, but nasa and azra primarily run at PIR. If you drive your car hard at PIR, there are only 2 corners you can spin on and not hit a wall. You spin in the 7 other corners and you are likely to hit a wall. If you are not near the limit with slicks, your chances of hittting a wall are less. At least at Firebird, 90% of the corners have lots of run out where the car will just spin and not hit anything. Since there are no elevation changes or drop offs, your chances of rolling your vehicle are pretty small. I personally like PIR as a track but the penalty is higher. I had much rather test the limits at the east track.

Larry is not getting a Christmas card from everbody, but he is being thrown under the bus here a bit unfairly.

Scott Coyle

[Slither]

Boy, I sure messed this thread up, didn't I? That was not my intent. Yes, there are issues with LP, but I can't and won't go in to them. They turned out to be on a personal basis. (and not with me, either) I do apologize for ruffling anybodys feathers. Sorry!
You are all correct. PASA does provide an outlet to drive your cars in an environment that allows you to test the limits of your car. The few times that I did it, I enjoyed my time. I guess it's really not for everyone. That is why we have choices. The other organizations must have their share of problems as well.
Please do not let any of my opinions or comments keep any of you from running with PASA. There are plenty of good times to be had at Firebird. Just BE CAREFUL!
Scott, well said. You are 99% correct in everthing that you said!!! I have watched you drive and enjoy doing so. Just don't let that bus back up over you!
I am curious as to why nobody from Arizona goes to any of the SAAC events? It is not solely for Shelby and CSX cars. Any Ford powered cars are welcome.

[ItBites]

Slither,

Maybe I got the wrong impression. I apologize if I ruffled your feathers as well. I have many friends (in race classes) who will not drive at Larry's events due to business or personal dealings and believed you were bringing those here. I mostly wanted folks to be able to deal with LP on their own. In three or four years, I've had no issue with LP, for my purposes, which are simple: Let me drive on the track...

I do agree: BE CAREFUL is always an appropriate thing to provide as advice. I'd also add: Take the driving school and ride with an instructor any time you get the chance.

Now, you asked about SAAC... A little too "high class" for me and also my kit car is Chevy powered, so they'd have two reasons to really look down their nose at this poor boy...

Coyled; well said!

[Slither]

ItBites,

Have fun running with PASA or any organization that you choose. No matter what or where you drive, just be careful. These Cobras are not the easiest cars on the road/track to drive, although Scott Coyle does make it look easy. He is pretty good.
SAAC is not "too high classed" for anyone. They welcome and invite all makes and models of Cobras. They don't look down anybodys nose. (that just sounds funny) Although the Chevy power would be a setback. Ya Think? There is usually ample track time for everyone. The summer SAAC convention, SAAC 32, will be held in Utah this year at Miller Motorsports Park the weekend following the 4th of July. Slip in a big FE motor and join us this year!!!

Have fun!!!

[Mulv]

To be honest , I ran with NorCal SAAC at mini nats once and would never do it again, they are not nice people at all... The SAAC event at Miller will only allow Ford powered cars - it is in the rules..... Brian - I'm ready for another round of instruction - interested in hopping in??...

Seriously, there are lots of people renting tracks. I have a friend who rents Buttonwillow and only has about 40 cars... anyone interested? I asked last year and no one was...