Classic Roadsters customer complaint to the Attorney General of North Dakoda - Page 3

Double Venom · #41 (**permalink**) 03-29-2003, 12:23 PM

ccoe,
If Don can't come through for you, here's a website you can order it directly. http://www.soffseal.com/largeICON.gif

Hopefully Don can get it as I too am out.
DV

TC Cobra · #42 (**permalink**) 03-29-2003, 12:58 PM

Don & DV,

Thanks for all the effort to "re-make" CR the way it should be -- keep up the good work! Looking forward to great things in the future.

I want to help/support you guys in any way I can. As I'm in parts-buying mode, how about a list of the companies for which you're a dealer/distributor. I'll be needing lots of stuff over the next couple of months.

Also, Don, are you usually around your shop on Saturdays?

Thx,
Dwain

jwinkler · #43 (**permalink**) 03-29-2003, 01:44 PM

Don -

I think I've asked this before, but is there an upside to being a parts supplier? It seems like I'm not the only one who's a constant tinkerer with my car - I did the motor a year ago, now it's brakes and springs, next will be new wheels, after that will be 5-point harnesses (if DV can post the install pics once again!), after that (even though I replaced the springs) it will be coil-overs, and on and on.

For all the help you've provided via this forum for every project I've undertaken, if there was profit in it for you as part of this new venture, I'd be thrilled to send my parts money your way.

Good luck with the CR upgrade (I guess it only makes sense that you and DV have made so many improvements to the car itself that you'd do the same for the business

) -

JLW

PS - thanks again for the source for the MII brakes - had them within a week of ordering, and they're just right.

dscott · #44 (**permalink**) 03-29-2003, 03:27 PM

I'm sure DV has the same problem with being a dealer for different companies. I have to buy in such small volume on some items that the dealer price is the same as the street price. Not true with all things but some. I got setup as a dealer for Jegs to try and save a few bucks. Some items I can get a good discount but most of the stuff I save only pennies. So what I do on some of the parts is just give you my suppliers number and have you deal direct. This saves you extra shipping cost. Others I can make a buck and still sell at a fair price. It's hard to compete with the big guys but we try. I tried to get setup as a dealer for Edelbrock and Carrera recently. They were more than happy to accomodate me after my initial $10k first order and my yearly commitment to $10K. Ask DV about his SVO dealership!

I can supply anything you need as well as DV, it's just a matter of fair pricing. I sell some items at my cost just to help the customers. DV and I usually know what works and what doesn't and somewhere along the line we've tried just about everything. I have a rack full of parts that didn't work like they were supposed too. So I guess the upside is that yes DV and I can sell you any parts you need. Can we be competitive on all of them, no, but I sometimes pay a little more if I trust the person selling to me. The way I usually sell small parts is to ship them to you and have you pay the bill after you get the parts. This lets you look and judge the parts, see if they are what you were expecting without feeling you got ripped! I find the Cobra family very trustworthy and I have never been ripped off by non-payment. I can't do this on the bigger ticket items, I wish I could, but if it's just a few hundred dollars it's worth it to me. If I ever do get ripped off I guess the person needed the part worse than me and they lost a valuable resource in DV and me.

So after all that, Yes we can sell parts. Boy talk about long winded, I should be a politician.
Don

Jack21 · #45 (**permalink**) 03-29-2003, 04:51 PM

It pains me to see this happening again.

In '91 - '92 -'93, all CR partial car owners with eternally back ordered parts found other sources for parts to complete their cars. Necessity, I guess, is again, the mother of invention, and everything on the CR could be duplicated, or fabricated.

If it weren't for the fact (or opinion) that the CR was one of the better cars once completed, this wouldn't even be an issue, but it is. Many of the local FFR guys look at my CR, and are astonished at the quality, and difference. Like comparing an oversize Go-Kart to an automobile.

Yet, so much of the CR is obsolete by todays standards. Late Mustang and Thunderbird suspension and brakes that FFR owners do enjoy are woefully absent from the CR.

I already have my completed car, love it, and enjoy the sh!t out of it. But others of you are just selecting the "Ultimate" sports car of your dreams. You need a better deal than you've been getting from CR. Don - Ed, I've always thought of you guys as the ones with the market experience and credibility to take this market segment away from Gary Rutherford and do it right.

Given the exposure in this media (as opposed to what was available in '91 - '93), investment $$$, if in fact any was needed should be a matter of letting "us" (editorially) know what you need to start production.

My guess is also that Gary Rutherford does not live paycheck to paycheck, or have concerns about his investments seeing him through retirement, or his kids and grandkids college education. Meaning, there is no crime in making a fair profit at this be you retired policeman, or mechanic/shop owner.

Guys...we're sick of this sh!t. If you have a better way, Go for it!

Double Venom · #46 (**permalink**) 03-29-2003, 07:35 PM

To all:

Since this is has been brought up, and for the most part it is NOT a secret that Don and I both sell parts. The same parts and specialized parts for different situations. It's a marriage that no one out side of our Cobra family would ever understand.

Just for your information, Don and I have made bids for turnkeys, parts packages, etc., against each other for years. Bottom line, in the business world we were direct competitors. It was not uncommon for the winner of the bid, to call the other, with full knowledge, the "other" was out bid, and buy parts from the looser. How we became friends instead of bitter competitors, I can only say it was a complete and total respect for each other. Knowing that each other had their special talents to make these cars better and safer. The old saying, "If you can't beat them--join them" has never been so justified. Actually, to this day I can't remember a day when Don or I asked each other to team up. It just kind of happened.

It did not phase me in the least when Don called and said he had investors that were willing to pick up the remains of CR's and make it better. Now a fact that I don't think Don even knew. I too had gathered up a few investors that were waiting in the wings for the right moment! Don beat me to the gun. He called, he asked for my support and I immediately gave it to him with no reservations. So once again we have teamed up. The future is a scary thing. But I give you a solemn promise, if DON can make this work, if CR's doesn't blow it, Classic Roadsters II, or what ever it ends up being called, will once again join the ranks of the finest, the most modern and one of the safest Cobras on the street!

Like Jack says, at the time, it was and still is one of the best Cobras on the market! Yes, it surely needs updated and "we" know what to do and how to do it! AND...if the ongoing nightmare can be put to bed, it will be done!

I have numerous reasons for not telling "all" here, but it appears the time is drawing near.

Neither Don nor I, (and we have never discussed this that I know of) have ever advertised our business on Brent's forum. Yes, both of us have tried to help, and if it made your car safer, we supplied parts, suggestions, what ever it took to get the means.

Yes, I do have a very old (in this business anyway) Cobra and Streetrod business that my wife and I started in 1970.
Again for those that may not know, I am: "Classics by Elite, Inc." with a trademark logo - "Yesterday's Classics - Today's Technology!" (This is how the first Double Venom was born- "Today's Technology")

Many of you have honored my wife and I by visiting our current little back yard shop over the last 18 years. It's nothing to look at, I mean it was a cow barn when we bought it and didn't even have concrete floors in it!

I'm getting to a point-really!

Three years ago, I had a banner made up for Brent simply because we were talking so much and selling many, many steering columns to you guys because of this forum. Then "THE Fling" was born. Do you guys really remembered how it happened? If not read the newly posted information on the Fling site. www.dvsf.com

First year wasn't a problem, at least not until the very end. DVSF II was started before DVSF-I was even over with. Now I was concerned that people might think I was trying to benefit my business by using Jenny. (If you did, then you don't know me!) No where will you see my business name anywhere attached to the Fling, other than having our name listed this year in the sponsors list.

OK...the point. Yes, I am a FORD MOTORSPORT dealer and have been for almost 10 years. Don and I are both legal dealers for so many company's now that it is hard to keep track of them. Flaming River, Gaffrig Gauges, M&R Seatbelts, PRO shocks, Blue Coil, etc., etc.

Like Don, I have and will continue to ship guys parts without being paid first, I will continue to take and make orders prior to payments, like Don, I have never been burnt by anyone in our Cobra family. I see no reason to change the way I do business now.

This is getting really long and I really am so short of time these days, but I feel I must tell another little secret. Since it fits and "you" will need, or should know that after 33 years in business, my wife and I decided to take on a partner. Some of you know him from "kicking butt" at Run & Gun with the original DV car, some even got to meet him personally at last years Fling.

Jay comes on board, with an engineering degree and a burning desire that Don and I share to the bone. I came from the school of "hard knocks" and midnight-street racing. I have a very extensive background in Accident Reconstruction. (Investigating and reconstructing fatal accidents) After 25+ years on the police department, running the business all at the same time, watching the Mrs. raise our family, I have been thinking, very hard over the last few years of simply retiring, and going fishin'. The only reason I didn't close the doors years ago, was because I love it so, and The Fling. Oh yes, the Fling. You guys have made this my proudest accomplishment.

I am so proud to introduce to you, MR. Jay (Jerome) Kowalik! Jay, a full fledged ASE engineer gave up over 12 years of employment at Honda of America to join my wife and I. (And you only thought "riding" in a cobra was addictive!)
Jay is learning the "kit car" market as you and I have. From sweeping the floors right up to designing and building new tilt front ends! Jay has brought a whole new level to Classics by Elite that I never would have been able to do alone.

Welcome aboard Jay! I know the Cobra family welcomes you with open arms.

DV...If any of you made it all the way through this, I owe you a cookie! Now back to the Fling!

petek · #47 (**permalink**) 03-29-2003, 08:57 PM

Man this just gets better and better ... well, except one thing... all that money I'm going to be spending updating my Cobra!

dscott · #48 (**permalink**) 03-30-2003, 08:47 AM

WOW! I thought I was long winded!

I want to welcome Jay on board, I met him at the Run & Gun a few years ago and thought he was a smart assed punk! Not really! Jay is a good guy and with him and DV together Classic by Elite should become #1 in the country. All the recent dealings with Jay and DV have gone very well and Jay's business experience comes through loudly. I've hit a few snags with the CR deal but one way or another we will have a product to sell and it will be top notch! My investors and I have made a committment to bring a great product to market and run the business with customer satisfaction as the #1 priority. With Jay and DV on board this will be an easy task.

DV hit it on the head when he talked about updates to the car. We have many planned to bring the car into the new century.

I might note that when this deal happens we will offer more than the Cobra. Several other models will be available and 1 of them is the coolest car I've seen in many years. Can't tell you now but I will later. So in short, I'm excited, Jay and DV are excited, my investors are excited, my cat is excited, everyones excited! This should be fun!
Don

Excaliber · #49 (**permalink**) 03-30-2003, 09:09 AM

I visited DV this past Xmas, took a couple of ladies with me. As I recall, Ed spent most of his time chatting with the laidies while Jay and I got down to facts and figures concerning the cars.

Worked out real well, kept them outta my hair so I could get some serious technical data input.

What a team! Great visit DV and Jay! Hope to see you guys again soon.

Ernie

nolimits · #50 (**permalink**) 03-30-2003, 09:47 AM

I guess I have been let out of the Classics by Elite closet!
I have not avoided our Component Car Family, and the forums, just focused on business and DVSF, while Ed (DV) gives up his expertise and hospitality to all of you, in addition to creating Cobras and Streetrods.
Classics by Elite has so much going on in the shop, DVSF III, working with Don and the Classic Roadsters acquisition, that making the time to dive head first into the forums was going to come in time.
I started with Ed in 1997, throwing ideas around on the original Double Venom. I lived at Lake Choctaw, where some of DVSF is held. Hung out at the shop, cause I got bit by the Cobra.
Ed, Diane and I talked for a long time on how becoming partners could make an enjoyable and long term profitable business out of the Classics by Elite hobby/business that was getting a bit overwhelming for Ed and Diane. Customers wanted Classics by Elite cars, and a deep back log on the calendar needed to be overcome.
We officially became partners on Sept. 11, 2002. This was our committment to this industry and strength in our Country to overcome the worst of times.
Our shop backlog is down to 3.5 months. We still have 4 Cobras and Tony Ripepi's Coupe in the shop to be completed by DVSF III. Classics by Elite now has 4 expert technicians, in addition to Ed and I in the shop, and Diane also taking care of business. We also have 2 part timers.
Yes, I left a career as a Principal Engineer at Honda R&D, because of a snake bite, and have enjoyed every second so far.
Those of you I have met so far, have been such enjoyable discussions, and look forward to continuing to meet the Family in the future. See you at DVSF III!
Jay

snake oil · #51 (**permalink**) 03-30-2003, 04:11 PM

Jay welcome to the family!!!

Ive only got one question:
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?

Arcenio

Brose · #52 (**permalink**) 03-31-2003, 08:40 AM

There is nothing like witnessing the birth of a business with vision fueled by passion. Nothing at all.

I've enjoyed following this thread but I can't help but sit back and think about the incomplete "last century" CR sitting in my garage. What aspects in the design of the car are lacking and how hard will it be to upgrade once "improvements" are available?

dscott · #53 (**permalink**) 03-31-2003, 10:03 AM

Brose, Don't get down on what you have! When I talk about changes most of the time it's to update some of the Mustang II donor parts that are hard to find. Ed and I have worked with Classic to change things like the radiator, fan, heater, motor mounts, etc. Changes I want to make are in the way the door hinge mounts, trunk hinge, wiring system, etc. I just went through the muffler change with the sidepipe mfg. I want to upgrade some of the components like the door opening system, seat belt mounts, etc. These are things that can be changed on your car with no problem. The basic design will remain the same. Ed and I already do most of the changes now, we just want to make them available to everyone to aid in the building process.

This car hasn't had any updates since it was introduced back in the early 90's so it's time. One of the other things to change is the manual. It needs to be updated as well.

So your car is fine. Don't worry about any major changes and, the small changes you can do now.

Don

arctic-snake · #54 (**permalink**) 03-31-2003, 12:44 PM

Being a new owner of a CR Cobra I am exited to see the "company" coninue and indeed grow. I feel I have just witnessed the public birth of this new entity. Congratulations.

Knowing I have a resource for the Cobra is a great advantage. Knowing that resource shares a passion is invaluable. Best of luck gentlemen. I'm looking forward to doing business with you in the future. In fact, I've imagined a bolt in fuel cell, aesthetic shoulder harness relocation to correct position, billet foot pedals/mounting hardware, wider rear wheels/tires, new coated headers/collectors and pipes etc. It's reassuring to know that I will have someone with the experience and technical knowledge to assist me.

Dale

jdean · #55 (**permalink**) 04-01-2003, 09:31 AM

Don,

Good luck on finalizing the deal. Us CR owners will not only get many improvements to the kit, but I am also looking forward to the added convenience of doing business with you guys.

What do I mean?.....well it is much more convenient to let someone you trust ship you something than to drive all the way to Fargo to be sure you get what you pay for!

John

4RE KLR · #56 (**permalink**) 04-08-2003, 06:44 AM

Don,
In doing your updates on the car

FIX THE DOORS!

Oh and congrats on your business decision. I am sure that with you three involved the Next Generation Roadsters will rule the market.

dalola · #57 (**permalink**) 04-08-2003, 11:49 AM

Geeze, I don't know how I missed this thread, but glad I stumbled onto it now!

Jay, glad to see you found your way outta the closet!

I was wondering when I could finally start telling people! The pressure has been killing me!

When you gonna come back here to Honda and recruit??

This all sounds very possitive for CR to say the least. Though I don't know all the parties involved, the ones I do know are good people. The potential is there to make a quality, safe, and technologically updated Cobra, as well as other "custom" hotrods. And it all starts with that passion for the cars.

Man, I gotta get over to the shop and see what's going on! Since A-S bought my car, I feel like I've got a window seat!

Dave

Double Venom · #58 (**permalink**) 04-08-2003, 02:50 PM

Allright....everyone sit down. The news is NOT good. Don and I have been in contact on almost a daily basis. The bottom line is, Roadsters has huge outstanding debts, unbelievable back orders and simply wants to much money for the company.

Don has offered everything and then some. In fact I think Don's offer is more than fair. Unfortunately "they" don't.

So... today Jay and I called Tom Eides at "IMAR" trying to persuade him that what we are trying to do IS more than fair. Tom is a great guy and a good businessman. But, he is not that familiar with this business and feels that CR's is worth a lot more than we think it really is!

Fellas, I don't know what to tell you. As previously mentioned Don and I both went through this same nightmare, as regular customers 13 years ago. I know the gut wrenching feeling all of you on the back order list are going through. I truly hate to see it come to this. I hate to say this, and I almost feel guilty thinking that Don and I may have failed you somewhere along the way, but, if asked, then I would advise all of you that have back orderd parts, especially for those that have waited at least 30 days then absolutely, without hesitation file a "formal" complaint with the Attorner Generals office of North Dakota...and do it NOW.

I don't know if it will help, but you at least will be on a legal list. If they get your parts to you then great, if not, at least you will have been heard. The North Dakota AGO is very, very familiar with CR's and is becoming more familiar every day.

DV...still have my fingers crossed

HIQ · #59 (**permalink**) 04-08-2003, 03:57 PM

DV,
Amazing! I can't believe there is a big market for a company that has been driven into the ground. Best of Luck!

starwolf56 · #60 (**permalink**) 04-08-2003, 05:04 PM

The last call that I made to CR was to Gary Rutherford.This guy actually has contempt for the customers who want the parts that they paid for! He was very arrogant. He takes no responsibility for what he morally and legally owes me or anyone else. He blames all the backorders on the people that work for him. This SOB actually told me that he is the one getting the short end of the stick,not me. Reality check here;Mr. Rutherford, I'm the one missing major parts that I paid YOU for!
The Better Business Bureau has my complaint. The Attorny General Office also is processing a formal complaint. They need to hear from ALL of us. They will listen. If we all sit and do nothing we will never get what we paid for. HOW MANY EXCUSES HAVE YOU BEEN TOLD? I have a list of excuses at least as long as the backorder parts they owe me!
I will put together a JOINT formal complaint to the Attorney General Office. I need your story and any documentation.
PLEASE DO THIS NOW! FOR MORE INFO E-MAIL ME at:

STARWOLF56 @AOL.COM

I will do all the paper work;but I need your help.

The business practices of Gary Rutherford have made their car business worthless.They should realize this and sell now to prevent futher losses. After all, how many of you guys would write another check to these people? Not me or anyone that I know! That's my opinion;based on fact!
Charles J. Robbins