Keith Craft Inc.- We service what we sell!!! Check out our Cobra engines!!! We build high performance racing engines and components for the fast pace strip racing industry as well as daily drivers who want to be FIRST!!!

FE Forums sponsored by Keith Craft Inc.


Go Back   Club Cobra > Engine Building, Tuning, and Induction > FE TALK

Welcome to Club Cobra!  The World's largest non biased Shelby Cobra related site!

  •  » Representation from nearly all Cobra/Daytona/GT40 manufacturers
  •  » Help from all over the world for your questions
  •  » Build logs for you and all members
  •  » Blogs
  •  » Image Gallery
  •  » Many thousands of members and nearly 1 million posts! 

YES! I want to register an account for free right now!  p.s.: For registered members this ad will NOT show

Keith Craft Racing
Nevada Classics
Main Menu
Nevada Classics
Nevada Classics
Advertise at CC
Banner Ad Rates
Keith Craft Racing
March 2024
S M T W T F S
          1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31            
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 06:46 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kansas City, KS
Cobra Make, Engine: jbl
Posts: 2,291
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton View Post
I magnified #4 up to 1000% and it sure looks like a crack----
does look like a crack
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 08:51 AM
undy's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, Va & Port Charlotte, Fl.,
Posts: 2,280
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vector1 View Post
since everything is aluminum and expands quite a bit, i would still look to sealing problems at the intake. if you've eliminated the possibility of the intake porosity problem, then........

next time you install the intake loosen the head bolts and install the intake and torque to spec or as close as possible, then torque the heads down. that should provide a good mating surface between the intake and heads.

One more time, repeat after me... IT'S NOT a CRACK!

I'm not sure if you're supposed to loosen, move and retorque the Failpro 1020 head gaskets. I believe they're supposed to be a one-shot torque gasket. I'm sure repositioning them for the intake would be a no-no. The port alinment and everything else is perfect with the intake anyway.
__________________
Too many toys?? never!
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 08:56 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: toronto, ont
Cobra Make, Engine: 408w 500 h.p. 550 ft.lbs
Posts: 562
Not Ranked     
Default

I agree--- if you have a sniffer available your method will work better.

Most of us are not that well equipped.

Good luck with your search, I hope it turns out to be fairly simple to rectify.

Craig
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:05 AM
undy's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, Va & Port Charlotte, Fl.,
Posts: 2,280
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-linkCobra View Post
I think its a head gasket. Running your oil at the temps your running at is burning the water out of the oil in the pan and the motor. The valve covers run quite a bit cooler and cool faster when you shut the motor down..hence the milk shake but not the creamy oil.

Are you loosing water? Something you might try if you have it back together and didnt fix the leak. Put a radiator pressure tester on the radiator. Pump it up to about 15 psi...fire it up and let it run for just a few minutes. Then check your oil and see if you have any coolant present. Need to check it before it has a chance to get hot enough to burn it off.

Just a thought.

I hope it isn't a head gasket but it's looking more and more that it may be. I'm probably going to pressure test the entire engine next as soon as I can fabricate some more blank flanges for the other head and water pump block inlets. At least that will tell me if I'm headed for a further tear down.

I'm losing hardly any water, just enough that would be accounted for with the minor coolant leak into the oil.
__________________
Too many toys?? never!
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:07 AM
undy's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, Va & Port Charlotte, Fl.,
Posts: 2,280
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton View Post
I magnified #4 up to 1000% and it sure looks like a crack----

A comment about nitrogen and air being mostly nitrogen----we breathe because of a build up of carbon dioxide in our res systems----a lung full of nitrogen will cause no co2 and you won't breathe---just go to sleep

The slime will go away with proper/adequate ventilation of the engine---it could be building up because of your two breathers. not the correct balance of flow and also the engine can be sucking in outside vapor on cool down---the ribbed covers agrevate that condition (top of motor cools quicker than bottom, alum quicker than iron)

you are pretty upset at this and it shows in your responses--

have you been a taster of coolant for very many years???
It's not a crack, I promise.

As I recall, on the breathing Nitrogen the statement that was made "One lungfull and you're dead". It takes quite a few lung fulls to put someone down. It's inert and non-toxic .... but as you hinted it displaces air/oxygen, like quite a few gasses out there does.

About 40 years worth of intermittent coolant tasting. It goes along with the many years I used to wash my hands in MEK!

The slime WILL NOT go away. It's from coolant leakage, not outside humidty being sucked into the motor and condensing up top. I had ZERO sludge while that block sealer I was using worked (6 months worth). The block sealer had nothing to do with proper crankcase ventilation.

I'm trying to come across as not being too upset, but I am... I feel I need to answer everyone's replies as I was the one that asked for everyone's suggestions in the first place. I've got a degree in Automotive Technologies and a non-current ASE master certification so I didn't fall off the apple cart yesterday.

Funny, I've not heard much from the internet experts much today?? Google must be down... Pat, are you there???? heh, heh.... Sometimes it's good to be bad.
__________________
Too many toys?? never!
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:09 AM
patrickt's Avatar
Half-Ass Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,888
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by undy View Post
Pat, are you there???? heh, heh.... Sometimes it's good to be bad.
Yes, I'm here. But I don't know what's causing your leak. And I thought you could breath a little bit of nitrogen and it wouldn't hurt you....
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:18 AM
Z-linkCobra's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edinburg, TX
Cobra Make, Engine: Everett Morrison, All aluminum small block ford.
Posts: 436
Not Ranked     
Default

When you do pressure test the motor make sure you check for leaks at the oil drains in the head. Im not real fimiliar with the FE motors but im not sure that block sealer would stop the leak at a head gasket for 6 months. You could possibly have some pitting from the oil drain galley to through into the water jacket.

I know that would really blow and you dont want to hear that....lol..but just a thought.
__________________
" If it wont break em loose in 3rd gear, it aint enough power "
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:19 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: E BRUNSWICK N.J. USA,
Posts: 3,841
Not Ranked     
Default Dumb thought but may be doable

Undy Dave what would happen if you charged the manifold with Freon? you have a sniffer like mine that will pick up very small leaks and the dye will leave a stain wheres its coming through?? Brain farting, Pat's not helping yet!!! Rick L. Ps if this doesn't show anything, do the block the same way if you can get a good seal. By the way Pat like the dentist office for his fix.

Last edited by RICK LAKE; 07-19-2010 at 09:20 AM.. Reason: forgot about Pat.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:36 AM
undy's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, Va & Port Charlotte, Fl.,
Posts: 2,280
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
Yes, I'm here. But I don't know what's causing your leak. And I thought you could breath a little bit of nitrogen and it wouldn't hurt you....
Not knowing never stopped you before... With everything else that's been through my lungs, Nitrogen would be my least worry.
__________________
Too many toys?? never!
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:41 AM
patrickt's Avatar
Half-Ass Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,888
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by undy View Post
Not knowing never stopped you before... .
If you keep pressurizing everything, and everything keeps passing, all I can think is that you just start blindly replacing gaskets. Sorry.
Reply With Quote
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:50 AM
undy's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, Va & Port Charlotte, Fl.,
Posts: 2,280
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-linkCobra View Post
When you do pressure test the motor make sure you check for leaks at the oil drains in the head. Im not real fimiliar with the FE motors but im not sure that block sealer would stop the leak at a head gasket for 6 months. You could possibly have some pitting from the oil drain galley to through into the water jacket.

I know that would really blow and you dont want to hear that....lol..but just a thought.
If the pressure test on the engine show a leak then I'll pull the heads and pressure test them individually. If it ends up being the block then ..........

The initial block sealer treatment stopped it for about 3 months or so and the leak started to gradually come back. That's when I gave it a second dose of treatment and same scenario, the leak started to return after several months. It seemed as the sealant flakes settled in the system their ability to plug the hole diminished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RICK LAKE View Post
Undy Dave what would happen if you charged the manifold with Freon? you have a sniffer like mine that will pick up very small leaks and the dye will leave a stain wheres its coming through?? Brain farting, Pat's not helping yet!!! Rick L. Ps if this doesn't show anything, do the block the same way if you can get a good seal. By the way Pat like the dentist office for his fix.
C'mon Pat, Rick 'n me need ya. There's GOT TO BE some added value somewhere, somehow...

Ya got to watch that FREON, one whiff and you're a DEAD MAN, or so I've been told. There's no ozone left growing moss between these ears..
__________________
Too many toys?? never!
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:57 AM
Jerry Clayton's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bartlett, Ill
Cobra Make, Engine: Everett-Morrison LS1
Posts: 2,448
Not Ranked     
Default

One thing about a fe engine--once you have the intake off theres only 10 more bolts in each head----

Even with your degree, I can tell you how to ventilate your engine so the slime doesn't collect and eventually mix with the whole oil supply----so you might have to add a cup of green stuff semi annually, but you won't have any slime/sludge in your valve covers.

This same problem showed up at nite drags and changes to non finned valve covers corrected it---
Engines with the exhaust evaq vents/whisles and non finned covers didn't do it!!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 09:59 AM
Jerry Clayton's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bartlett, Ill
Cobra Make, Engine: Everett-Morrison LS1
Posts: 2,448
Not Ranked     
Default

And if you are going to pressure test the engine--you can do it one side at a time without removing the heads
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 10:27 AM
patrickt's Avatar
Half-Ass Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,888
Not Ranked     
Default

Undy, would you be willing to put the Blue Thunder back on for remainder of the summer? If your leak then disappeared then you could switch it back with the Dove, and if it reappeared, the Dove would have to go. If it were me, that's probably what I would do.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 10:36 AM
undy's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, Va & Port Charlotte, Fl.,
Posts: 2,280
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton View Post
And if you are going to pressure test the engine--you can do it one side at a time without removing the heads

Thanks Jerry, you're entirely right... I didn't even think about how the coolant passages do not go left to right, other than in the intake. That's what I call ADDED VALUE! That should narrow it down even further. Not seeing a FE coolant flow diagram I would assume the the right side water pump block entrance just feeds the right side of the block and visa versa for the left side.

As I'd said, I never had the froth until I had the coolant leak. It never produced the froth before for two years, with the other intake and the exact same ventilation system (2 breathers and a PCV) and the same finned valve covers.
__________________
Too many toys?? never!

Last edited by undy; 07-19-2010 at 10:49 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 10:41 AM
Senior Club Cobra Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 15,712
Not Ranked     
Default

...being one of the resident internet expert's I thought I better get in on this thread as well.

Don't have a clue, you've covered the bases nicely.

I did like Rick's idea of under water testing for bubbles, I've had good luck with that finding very small leaks in tires. I don't currently have any freon or gas type leak detection tools, so a water bath would have to do for me.

Taste of glycol is a key element in this exercise, very telling.

On removing the heads: Head bolts no problem, HEADER bolts are a PITA however!
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 10:47 AM
patrickt's Avatar
Half-Ass Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,888
Not Ranked     
Default

Uhhh, Ernie... before he disassembles his engine and puts his block under water, wouldn't you like to see a season with the ol' tried 'n true Blue Thunder intake back on it?
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 10:56 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,078
Not Ranked     
Default

Dave,
Just grasping again but this thought occurred:

A. Started after the intake change-right?
B. Goo only in VC's-right?

Guessing that water is entraining into the oil feed at the rocker pedestals in each head. That would contaminate only the valve cover area. Don't know where such water could come from and don't know why the goo doesn't go down the corner head drains and contaminate the valley/crankcase areas. You don't oil through the pushrods right?

Just trying to get someone smarter than me to think away from all the gasket/head/porosity/testing stuff beat to death here. You've covered all that in my view.

If you haven't already-get KC to listen and offer a thought or two. I KNOW he's not responsible for this problem.

Getting a headache.
__________________
Chas.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 10:57 AM
undy's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Virginia Beach, Va & Port Charlotte, Fl.,
Posts: 2,280
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
Undy, would you be willing to put the Blue Thunder back on for remainder of the summer? If your leak then disappeared then you could switch it back with the Dove, and if it reappeared, the Dove would have to go. If it were me, that's probably what I would do.
Thanks Pat, but the probability of it being in the heads, block or head gaskets is too great for the added labor required for another two (possibly useless) intake swaps. I need to run this diagnosis to ground while I'm into it this far.

Who knows... I might even contract to BP to have them stop the leak.... NAW, my poor batting average is still better that theirs.
Water in the oil, oil in the water, same song with different lyrics.
__________________
Too many toys?? never!
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2010, 11:02 AM
Senior Club Cobra Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 15,712
Not Ranked     
Default

I was talking about the intake (under water), not the block. Like Undy, I'm thinking intake because apparently it happened after the swap.

Of course, sometimes, logic such as that can be a red herring and it's not related at all. As fate would have it, the block or related component started to leak about the same time as the intake swap, couldn't rule it out.

Under water test is only applicable to those poor souls, like myself, without the diagnostic tools to do it another way.

Last edited by Excaliber; 07-19-2010 at 11:06 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubcobra.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Shelby American, any other replica manufacturer, Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by clubcobra.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Ford Motor Company, or Shelby American or any other manufacturer unless expressly noted by that entity. "Cobra" and the Cobra logo are registered trademarks for Ford Motor Co., Inc. clubcobra.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting clubcobra.com. For full policy documentation refer to the following link: CC Policy