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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2017, 06:39 PM
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OK, it's the starter ("jumping the solenoid" didn't change a thing. No alternator moving, WP, etc. Ran out of time (OK, wanted to nap) so I haven't gotten under the car to pull the starter. (Powermaster 6905??).

Yesterday, I hooked up my remote starter but it wouldn't start (this was BEFORE the starter failed). Might have hooked it up wrong..PLEASE refresh my memory about where the two clips are placed.

Should I put the "110s" in? I had "H"s which, according to the poop sheet, is a "97". I thought vaseline was bad for viton, so, no I didn't use it. I can tell you, as a gynecologist, that when we were "told" to use it in high school, that was bad advice!

4 Threads showing atop the primary bowl, with the adjusting nut and set screw off.

thanx. s
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2017, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by steve meltzer View Post
OK, it's the starter ("jumping the solenoid" didn't change a thing. No alternator moving, WP, etc. Ran out of time (OK, wanted to nap) so I haven't gotten under the car to pull the starter. (Powermaster 6905??).

Yesterday, I hooked up my remote starter but it wouldn't start (this was BEFORE the starter failed). Might have hooked it up wrong..PLEASE refresh my memory about where the two clips are placed.

Should I put the "110s" in? I had "H"s which, according to the poop sheet, is a "97". I thought vaseline was bad for viton, so, no I didn't use it. I can tell you, as a gynecologist, that when we were "told" to use it in high school, that was bad advice!

4 Threads showing atop the primary bowl, with the adjusting nut and set screw off.

thanx. s

Looking at the front of the starter solenoid, there are two connections. The one on the LEFT engages the solenoid when it is fed 12v+. (The connection on the right is to bypass your ballast resistor - ignore it.) With your remote starter switch, clamp one prong on the big pole of the starter solenoid that leads directly to the battery, put the other prong to the left connection on the front of the solenoid. When you pull the trigger on the switch, your solenoid will engage and your engine will crank (unless the starter is broken).

With an H on the old N/S, you should be using a .110 -- fortunately, switching them out is a five minute job. You do not put Vaseline down on the viton tip, you just put a light schmear on your finger and wipe the black O-ring that is in the middle of the N/S valve.

Let's start by putting in the .110 N/S valves, with a light dab of Vaseline on the O-ring, and tighten them down to where you see, just barely, 3 threads. We just want to get the car to start, idle, and not spew gas all over the engine. Then we'll get it perfect after we first get it to work.

Regarding the starter motor, I still run the old school Ford OEM starter motor -- they're about $50 and NAPA usually has them in the back of the shop. But it's usually easier to replace your starter with the same one you had in there before.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:57 AM
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OK, i'll switch to "110s" next.

If the e-pump were on, and thus the bowls filled (even with ignition off), why couldn't you set the floats then and there without the fuss and muss of having it running, or even just cranking it, as you do? No gas spewing, etc.

here's a picture of my solenoid. So where do i put the two remote starter clips? There are three terminals, the "IK" small terminal in the middle goes to the VR.

thanx. s
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:27 AM
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Your starter solenoid looks to be just a three wire version of the Ford OEM solenoid that is on most of the Cobra cars. It does not have the ballast resistor bypass terminal, which would be on the right. Here is a pic of the traditional solenoid that is on my car, and zillions of the other Ford based electrical systems:


Place one alligator clip on that single terminal on the front of your solenoid. Place the other alligator clip on whichever one of those two big red cables goes directly to the battery. When you pull the trigger, you will hear a big "CLICK" noise from the solenoid itself, telling you that it has engaged. If you hook the switch up wrong, you won't hear anything.

OK, just in case you are a stickler for authoritative based parts referencing, if you look on the front of your air horn, I'm going to guess that, since your car is 15 years old, that the number is going to be 3310-10 or maybe 3310-11. If you then go here http://documents.holley.com/techlibr...al_listing.pdf on the Holley Technical Resource page, you can see on that page that the correct Needle and Seat for those carbs is a #6-504 https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...ts/parts/6-504 That's a .110 seat size.

You could indeed set the floats with the electric pump on, and you'd be close, but the float level is also dependent on the amount of pressure coming from the pump itself. What that means is that the float level will be a little different if you are running the electric pump, which will have a slightly different pressure, than the mechanical pump. This is because the float has to push the N/S up "harder" to seal off a greater pressure, so the float itself will sit a little lower in relation to the pool of gas that surrounds it. That is why you must set your floats based on what you're going to be driving with.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2017, 08:05 AM
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This has been a great educational experience for me, so thanx again. And thanx also, for the definitive Holley reference for the n/s units. While I'm foolin' with the solenoid, can you help me with this question....

I'm using an MSD 8981 timing control unit. (I don't think it's being made any longer) and it has a violet wire that retards the timing a bit for easier starting. I have it wired to that middle, small terminal (that I've labeled "IK"), but is that correct or should it be on the "battery terminal", so labeled in my photo and is the large terminal that's to your left as you view the picture (car's right). Here's the link for the timing unit for your reading pleasure.

http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInst...1/121-8981.pdf


THANX AGAIN. s
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve meltzer View Post
This has been a great educational experience for me, so thanx again. And thanx also, for the definitive Holley reference for the n/s units. While I'm foolin' with the solenoid, can you help me with this question....

I'm using an MSD 8981 timing control unit. (I don't think it's being made any longer) and it has a violet wire that retards the timing a bit for easier starting. I have it wired to that middle, small terminal (that I've labeled "IK"), but is that correct or should it be on the "battery terminal", so labeled in my photo and is the large terminal that's to your left as you view the picture (car's right). Here's the link for the timing unit for your reading pleasure.

http://www.jegs.com/InstallationInst...1/121-8981.pdf


THANX AGAIN. s
From the instructions:

Start Retard: This optional feature will retard the timing 20 during cranking to ease starting. It is activated when 12 volts is applied to the Violet wire and turns off (timing returns to the total timing) when the voltage is removed. Connect this wire to the wire that activates the starter solenoid. Note: The start timing retards 20 from the total timing.

You should connect the violet wire to the small connector on the front of your solenoid. That connector receives 12v+ so long as your fingers are on the ignition key turned fully to the "crank" position. As soon as you release the ignition key (because the engine has "caught"), no voltage flows to that terminal. You could, if you wanted, but you do not need to and you shouldn't, wire it in to the starter motor side of the solenoid (not the battery side, or you would always be 20 degrees retarded). The only conceivable reason you would ever do that would be if that little retarding circuit drew a God-awful amount of current to do its job (which it doesn't).
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:25 AM
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Great, so I'm good so far. thanx again. more after i get the starter out and the n/s changed. s
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:47 AM
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Actually a three wire solenoid is a little safer than the four wire solenoid for two reasons:

1) Forty years ago we used to hotwire Ford cars using two paper clips. One paper clip was fastened between the small right terminal and the hot battery side of the solenoid. The second paper clip was brushed against the two front terminals to crank the engine, which would then start.

2) You've probably read posts where guys make the outlandish claim "I started my car, and the starter motor stayed engaged and even when I pulled the key out of the ignition both the starter motor kept running and the engine kept running... wtf was going on???!!!???" This is because the small right connector continues to receive 12v+ when the solenoid is engaged, thus bypassing the ignition switch circuit to the coil. So if the the solenoid sticks in the "engaged" position, it will also politely provide the ignition circuit its needed 12v+, so the car will keep running. The stock ERA wiring diagram actually lets this happen even if you have a MSD box wired in, and have never heard of, nor used, a ballast resistor in your life.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:07 AM
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As is often the case, i made an error...the n/s i installed were in fact 110s and the cheat sheet from Holley was that an "H" should be a 110. I pulled them out, lubed the "o-rings" and installed to about 3 threads.

Starter out and, as the photos show, the pinion gear is a mess. You can see the shards of metal on the starter face. Will check the teeth on the flywheel this evening, if I have time. The guy at the electrical shop said this is a common Toyota Camry starter, with a different gear and different face. Good, strong and reliable starter. Wonder if it needed shims or some such tolerance issue?

More later. s
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by steve meltzer View Post
The guy at the electrical shop said this is a common Toyota Camry starter, with a different gear and different face.
Hmmmm, I have never heard of doing that on an FE. Not saying it's bad, mind you, just saying I have never heard of it. There's no shortage of starter motor choices for an FE. As I mentioned, I use the plain old OEM Ford job that weighs like 200 pounds and costs like fifty bucks.

Now that you've put the needle and seat valves back in with a little grease on them and three threads showing, why don't you just turn on the electric pump and see if you see gas shooting out anywhere? We won't bother setting the floats or anything until you get the starter motor in, but let's just look to see if gas is flying first.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:29 AM
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i can do that, but with the car on jack stands, nose up, will that tell you any more than knowing it didn't spew when i was trying to crank it over the weekend? i doubt you could set the floats very well with the butt down on the jack stands. s
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:49 AM
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i can do that, but with the car on jack stands, nose up, will that tell you any more than knowing it didn't spew when i was trying to crank it over the weekend? i doubt you could set the floats very well with the butt down on the jack stands. s
No, if it's up on the stands just leave it there. Getting the starter motor back on and working is the first priority. I was just thinking that maybe when you originally put the needle and seat valves in with the O-ring dry that they weren't seated properly and that let gas by on one of them, which caused gas to flow out the boosters, and that's what caused the flooding. But, we'll take a look at that after you get a new starter motor in. FWIW, here's a pic of my OEM starter. I have actually driven my car up on to a flatbed before using nothing but this starter motor. And if you stubbed your toe on it, it would break your ankle.

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Old 03-21-2017, 10:58 AM
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yeah, that's the boat anchor/brick that mine came with. Single terminal to battery. Right? s
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:01 AM
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yeah, that's the boat anchor/brick that mine came with. Single terminal to battery. Right? s
Yep, that's it - with only one wire and one terminal, even RodKnock could figure out how to wire it up.
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Old 03-21-2017, 11:52 AM
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Starter out and, as the photos show, the pinion gear is a mess. You can see the shards of metal on the starter face. Will check the teeth on the flywheel this evening, if I have time. The guy at the electrical shop said this is a common Toyota Camry starter, with a different gear and different face. Good, strong and reliable starter. Wonder if it needed shims or some such tolerance issue?
That looks like a PowerMaster starter with their Infi-Clock rotation system.

There are internal shims for the starter face, to pull the gear away from the flywheel. I had to send mine back to PowerMaster and they installed a "special" second shim. The instructions say only to use one internal shim. I have the 9603 model.



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Old 03-21-2017, 12:20 PM
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Texas doc, thanx for the info. I do indeed have a Powermaster, a 9506. From viewing the photo do you think I need a shim, or two? How do you tell, or should i go to there website.
Your name suggests, like me, you're a Texas physician. Yes. I'm a solo gyn in Houston. thanx steve
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:31 PM
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You need to measure the distance from your mounting plate to the front edge of your flywheel teeth. The long end if some dial calipers are great for this. It needs to be within 1/16" of spec, depending on your motor and starter model. If you're distance is under spec, you as the shim.

I'm a Family Practice doc in Ft. Worth.

Edit: Here are the instructions for your starter: http://www.powermastermotorsports.co...ockingInst.pdf

Last edited by Texasdoc; 03-21-2017 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:34 PM
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OK, thanx so much. steve
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:42 PM
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Peeking in and looking at the flywheel teeth will also tip you off as to how they are engaging. Here's the Ford Shop Manual, circa 1966, page on gear engagement that I had copied for someone who had a similar problem a few years ago. From those pics you posted, you kinda look like the "small wear pattern."

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Old 03-21-2017, 01:05 PM
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It does look like the small wear pattern, but as far as I know, there is no adjustment for that. That is dependent upon the relationship between your flywheel and the starter mounting location. As far a the SBFs, those are set by the bell housing and engine plate and are fixed in location. I don't know if they make offset bolts to correct that or not (kinda like how you would center a bell housing to the crank with offset dowels).

Just guessing here and maybe someone else will chime in with the right answer, but you can ask PowerMaster if they have a slightly larger drive gear to increase gear mesh/engagement...???

Edit: Doing a little research - it looks like the FE's used different size flywheels for different blocks. You should count the number of teeth your flywheel has to be sure. Since you have the starter off, mark one tooth with liquid paper (White-out) and slowly rotate the motor with a wrench on the crank bolt. Count the teeth until you get back to your mark. That way you know for sure.

Here is a link (Clicky) from ffcars forum that talks about BBF starters/flywheels/bell housings. I don't know if the difference is just the size of the mounting plate, bolt hole locations, or depth of the drive gear. Check yours to make sure you have the right one. Also, you do have the motor plate installed between the block and the bell housing, right?

Last edited by Texasdoc; 03-21-2017 at 01:35 PM..
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