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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2002, 06:14 AM
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Question Motec's being wired this week - what should I datalog?

I dropped the motor at the electrician's shop today, which leaves me only a few more days to work out what extra sensors I need to install for datalogging. So far I plan on having:

Oil temp
Oil pressure
Fuel pressure
Fuel pulse width
Fuel pump(s) voltage
Fuel volume through return line???
Air temp before intercooler
Air temp after intercooler
Manifold pressure
Water temp
Throttle position
Ignition timing via crank trigger sensor

I would like to have individual temp sensors in each header pipe, but the sensors are just too expensive to buy eight of them. The car should be making around 850 - 900hp at the flywheel, and the dyno shop's wide band lamda sensors will be fitted only while the motor is on the engine dyno. Motec enable wideband logging for the first 6 hours running time for free. Two wide band sensors along with permanent lambda logging is nearly $1000US on it's own

Have I missed anything? The car will be mainly used on the street, but I'd like to get it on the roadracing tracks and dragstrip around here when I can. I'm using a Motec M800 on a supercharged fuel injected intercooled smallblock running a little over 20lb boost if that's relevant to your answer.

Thanks for your help - I bet I've forgotten something.....
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Old 04-23-2002, 08:17 AM
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Hi Craig,
Man that should be one potent motor! The one thing you didn't mention(but probably alluded to by mentioning the price of wide-band O2 sensing) is A/F ratio. Since that's really the ONLY way you can safely dial in your combo, I'd log it. I bought a kit to build the needed widget from these guys. Check 'em out, they're down in your 'hood. Looking forward to meeting you when we trek. I'm gonna trailer this year but should still be a blast.

Mike Foss
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http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/default.htm
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Old 04-23-2002, 08:33 AM
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Craig,

Why not throw in some wheel speed sensors? Then you have traction control to go with all that power.

Next, I would add damper travel sensors for chassis tuning.

Also on the must have list would be two accelerometers for recording longitudinal, lateral, and vertical G's. Placing each one at equal spacing from the CG to allow for pitch and yaw measurement.

With the above data, you could dial in your chassis to match the power of your motor without guessing.
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Old 04-24-2002, 03:50 AM
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Richard - wheel speed sensors!!!! I KNEW I'd forgotten to tell him something.... Would you bother having four wheel sensors, or just run one front and one back wheel? I can't imagine I'll be carrying the front wheels off the ground all that often I do want the traction control enabled. I imagine there'll be a fair amount of trial and error in picking the right percentage of wheel slip for best performance. I'm afraid that my chassis really isn't anything special. So much so that it might hurt me to spend money on sensors only to prove how bad it really is Seriously though, do you use the Bosch yaw rate sensor or the Accelerom brand? Accelerom seem a fair bit cheaper, but is it worth spending the extra for Bosch's reknowned quality?

Mike, I've been hearing conflicting opinions about the wide band sensors in high boost applications. Some say that the quickest 5 and 6 wire sensors still cannot obtain lambda readings and alter the fuel/spark quickly enough in closed loop for supercharged/turbocharged applications. If this is the case, then the main benefit in having the wide band sensors would be for datalogging rather than "on the move" tuning corrections. For similar money as the high end WB O2 sensors, I think I'll probably fit 8 Thermoprobes. At least then I can have a specific reading for each individual cylinder rather than four cylinders combining. I'm using an Edelbrock Super Victor carb manifold, and I'm a little concerned that one or more cylinders might be lean. I hope I'm right in thinking that the individual cylinder trim ability of the Motec will allow the tuner to richen that cylinder and/or knock the timing back as required. With individual cylinder datalogging, any injectors going bad can easily be seen (if I download the data religiously... )

I'm talking out loud here if anyone has any opinions or corrections on what I'm saying.

Mike, have you fitted your AFR meter. It looks like these guys are doing their homework and presenting a good product for the right price! Hersh mentioned that you were towing in to the Fling. I'm trying to scrape enough cash together to buy a gearbox from PA. If this happens, is there any chance of packing it in the back of your truck for the drive back from the Fling? I'm nothing if not pushy 8 weeks until Scott and I fly in to Arizona!

One last thing..... is every second guy in the AZ Cobra Club named Mike?!?
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Old 04-24-2002, 05:18 AM
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750

I have a Gardner Douglas in the UK with a Procharger blown V8, and I am getting 550lb/ft and 540hp, but I am only running 7psi at the moment.

I am going to be going Motec soon and would be really interested to hear how you get on with the set-up.

Regarding Traction Control, I have a Racelogic system, and you need the 4 wheel sensors to differentiate between cornering and slip, and the optimum slip ratio is 10%. This gives the best ratio of slip/traction to acheive the best traction both wet and dry.

The Racelogic has an in-car adjuster, which allows you to dial in the slip from 0% to 25%, to have fun and learn.

More info and tech stuff at http://www.racelogic co.uk

HTH

Robert

The UK Cobra Club - http://www.cobraclub.com
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Old 04-24-2002, 05:52 AM
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Hi Robert,
The main concern for me is trusting someone to tune the motor..... I'm taking it on a 2000 mile round trip because I believe the best guys are in Melbourne. I'd love to take it to the dyno shop 1 minutes from my home, but I really don't want to melt a brand new motor through someone elses mistake.

Nizpro in Melbourne have a MASSIVE air to water intercooler with an EVEN BIGGER water holding capacity for it. This means they can tune the motor with an intake air temp of 15 degree C, then 20 degrees, then 25, then 30, 35, etc, etc. By accurately mapping the fuel and ignition for all these tables, I think I'll have a really reliable tune up for all weather conditions.

I wonder how smotth the Motec traction control is. If you consider how quickly a strong engine revs when it breaks traction, I wonder how they'll try to run the control. If they cut spark, the balance of the car is WAY compromised. If they cut fuel, it'll probably lean out. If they retard the timing, the motor will probably still make 500 or 600hp with a timing advance, so keep spinning the tyres. Maybe I should run a throttle body before the blower that progressively chokes off air entering the blower. While traction control is not being used, the throttle body could just sit there wide open?

How much do you pay for Motecs over there?
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Old 04-24-2002, 05:58 AM
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we pay a lot of cash for a Motec Unit, but I have a friend who flies back and forth who will buy one in Oz and bring it back for me.

The Racelogic system will cut fuel with an injection system, but it is suprising how short a period of time the lean condition occurs, so there is no damage to the engine.

The Racelogic is however a pregressive slip unit, so the unit will slip in 3% increments, therefore it will not immediately cut the fuel.

The carbed version interfaces with an MSD, and will modify the spark, on selected cylinders, which will give a rich condition, but a rich condition is slightly less dangerous than a lean condition in our sort of engines, hence my current thinking of sticking with the carb, but who know.

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Old 04-24-2002, 08:28 AM
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Craig,
I'll be using my W/B as a portable tuning aid only, to make changes to the fuel map. Right now it's in a black box with power leads and the sensor hanging out. As far as the response time of T/C vs O2 sensors goes, I'd bet on the O2's as the T/C outputs are a result of a voltage change created by a bi-metallic(chromel/alumel) junction. In a typical K-type T/C calibration, I've seen them respond as slow as .5 sec/deg C. Maybe that's OK. Don't know.

I'd be happy to haul that gearbox(tranny?) back for you. S/B no problem, unless Janet goes crazy buying souvies at the fair! You know how that goes.
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Old 04-24-2002, 09:06 AM
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Craig,

You need to run all four wheel sensors to make the system work correctly.

The Bosch Bosch yaw rate sensor seems to be the prefered unit.

For traction control, the best control method is a electronic throttle control such as used in F1 cars. (They mess with the diff and clutch as well)

I know that the turbo guys are using electronic wastegates to vary boost for traction control and it seems to work pretty well. Since you are running supercharger, maybe a electronic throttle in front will work as well.
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Old 04-24-2002, 03:55 PM
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Craig, I have the speed pro with the wide band o2 sensor in the collector. I would get the wide band o2 if I were you. It is the only way to know for sure what your air fuel ratio is. As you data log going down the road, the motor sees the exact load based on car weight gear etc.. and the air entering the motor is different at 100 mph turbulance wise than on a rear wheel or engine dyno. As you datalog and make adjustments, you realize that the o2 is slightly behind and make your adjustments earlier in the fuel curve until you get the exact ratio you want thru the entire rpm range. I now only use mine above 4500 rpm and above 80% throttle so that when I am running uncorked I will avoid a lean spot at high rpm. At high speed, when the motor cranks up at a slower rate, the o2 is dead on accurate as far as changes the o2 makes on the fly. In first or second gear, you add rpm so fast, its impossible for the o2 to read and adjust in real time. Hope this helps and good luck. scott
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Old 04-24-2002, 04:21 PM
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Craig,
Don't drop the pyro's completely! Stick one in each collector. It is amazing what information you will gleem from keeping track of the exhaust temps!

Ok, back to my corner!

DV 300 Cobras is NOT enough & by golly, we're going to make it!
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Old 04-24-2002, 07:55 PM
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Thanks a lot for the replies!
Robert,
There was a guy over here using Racelogic with success. He changed for a Motec computer and used the inbuilt traction control. He said they were both similarly effective. A Procharger with a carb sounds cool! Make sure if you buy the Motec through your friend that you get both the access codes for the unit. Without the codes, you just have a pretty little box to hang behind your bar at home...

Mike - thanks for the K-Type info. I just assumed that they were super fast judging by how thin they were.... My stupidity astounds me sometimes I'd love to bring the G-Force trans back, but I'm still trying to justify the $5000+ required. I'll let you know well before the event if I'm seriously looking like getting one.

Richard - Yet again you've pointed out what i should have already considered.... An electronic boost control would work equally effectively on a supercharged motor. In fact, Motec have this as a standard Output function within the setup options! I was previously considering a fly by wire throttle system but gave up after realising how much trial and error is required to really use this facility to anywhere near it's true capacity. I fear if I just try to half do the job I'll simply add another potential reliability weak link into the system. I'll use the four wheel sensors in any case.

coyled and DV - My main fear is having an injector clog and ulitmately melting a piston. In this case, a wideband sensor or thermocouple for EGT will be reading FOUR cylinders, so the wideband compensation will only serve to richen the other three cylinders. I figure if that's the case, I'll still hurt that lean cylinder. If I install all eight thermocouples (the quick reading ones) into each cylinder, just out of the cylinder head I'll have a dead-on accurate indication of the true health of each cylinder. Datalogging can then show up any individual rich or lean cylinders and the laptop can make the corrections. If I never check the datalogging, the information is useless as a preventitive (bad injector scenario) measure. Hopefully the Motec will allow a warning light or buzzer to activate if any single EGT reads higher than a nominated figure. This way I'll have a real time, accurate indication that one cylinder is struggling.

coyled - I'm interested in the way that you've set up your Speed Pro. I may be wrong, but I thought most cars have the wide band set to work at UP TO 80% throttle position, then went open loop to the pre-determined settings based on load, rpm and TPS as shown on an engine dyno. This way, the closed loop wide band was used mainly for emissions compliance, low speed driveability and idle quality. Obviously not the way you're doing it, but have you also heard of this being the case? I'm also using a supercharger, so does this negate the airspeed effects of a naturally aspirated motor? Assumptions again, but by tuning the motor using TPS/Revs/MAP sensor and air temp, is road speed relevant anymore? I really hope you're going to the Fling, because I've read a lot about your cup-motored monster and I'd love to see it in the flesh
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Old 04-25-2002, 09:55 AM
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Craig, I understand why they tune with the o2 as needed for emissions and fuel economy. Don't forget that they have a mass air flow sensor on the front end to help make the changes in the fuel map quicker. I can not run mine with the map sensor. If I rely on vaccum, their is so little at idle that there is not enough resolution in the fuel map from idle vaccum to WOT. In my application, I have the o2 off on the street. On the track, with open pipes, I have it on as I have no way to datalog and see how much more fuel it needs with the open pipes. With sensors at the base of the head for each cylinder, the response of the computer to make adjustments should be real time in your motec set up. In my application, the motor cranks up so fast, it is impossible for the down stream o2 to read and adjust fast enough in low gears or any gear on tip in throttle. Once I am in third or fourth, the o2 can correct in real time once floored. You may be correct with the supercharger as far as hi speed air flow not makeing a difference. If I were you, I would let the o2 adjust for you under hi boos even after you program your fuel map. The reason is that in a boosted application, heat can have a big effect on the fuel required to make the most power with out gernading the motor.I am not going to the spring fling, I am going to willow springs in 2 weeks and road america in september. Good luck, scott.
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Old 04-26-2002, 12:10 AM
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Scott and Craig why don't we have a cobra night at the Pavillians when Craig gets to town then you guys can talk all you want about fuel inj. and traction control!!!! And you know guys like me will be just waiting to get in on the conversation. I love that stuff . What do you think guys? I'm sure all the AZ guys would like to meet Craig , it would be a great reason to get together. Also if anyone would like to go to Speed World on Friday night I will be running a Mustang with a new combo so come on out. I have never been to the track with any Cobras. It would be a lot of fun , and it doesn't cost much. Come on out and play...... Come and cheer us on and try to get this car in the 8's . Kevin
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Old 04-26-2002, 02:13 AM
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Hi Kevin - I don't know what the Pavilions is, but Hersh mentioned a while ago that it might be worth going to the local drive in on the Saturday before the Fling. He said about 200 cars often turn up. I'd love to meet up with some guys that can't make the Fling! On the Monday 17th June there's a send-off party which is also the monthly meeting, so I'm hoping that there'll be a good rollup there as well.

Scott - have you ever attached a video to your car when you're on the track? I have a fantastic video of a Shelby Spec Cobra at Willow, and I'd love to see your car being driven hard on a track

I spoke at length with the dyno guy as well as Motec tech guys today. The dyno has a MASSIVE air to water intercooler that has such a vast water resevoir that you can stabilise intake air temps at any level you desire. As such, complete fuel/ignition tables can be formulated for an inlet air temp of 50 degrees, then 60 degrees, then 70, 80, 90 etc. Hopefully this can provide a strong base tune up for any weather conditions when referenced against TPS, MAP and RPM.

Here's a quick reply I received from Motec today. I rang them for some other questions I had, but I thought you might be interested to hear what they had to say about some of my previous questions:


Hello Craig,
I have not heard an argument against having Wide Band Lambda sensors on high horsepower forced induction set-ups, the new Bosch LSU that we now use reacts very quickly. I would think that the reaction time of a WB lambda sensor would be quicker than a temperature thermocouple. One thing that I would like to say, and it is my standard advice, is that if the engine is properly tuned to start with, compensations as well, there should be no need to tune on the run and if you have an injector fouling it needs to be fixed.

I agree that having eight individual sensors to monitor individual cylinders is the best way to go but spark and fuel trimming is done to the engine as a whole on the go (eg Lambda control). Individual cylinder trimming can be done in the tuning stage but the proportions (between cylinders) are set so if you have a compensation based on exhaust temp or lambda wanting to richen one cylinder then all the cylinders get the same amount of enrichment. Yes there is a facility to warn of individual cylinders getting hot but this is a general warning light and will only tell you if there is a problem and not which one it is. If you had one of our Dashes then all these things would be easy, a warning would be specific and in big writing.

One other thing I don't think there is much likely hood of a sudden injector failure that would be alerted to you quickly enough to save the engine from pain. Like you said if the injector slowly dies over a long period you could see it in the logging . I hope I have answered your questions, feel free to get back to me my answer was based on a time thing and not wanting you to wait over the week end, it could probably be discussed further to keep your mind at ease.



"save the engine from pain" Engines have feelings too you know!!!!!
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Old 04-26-2002, 02:16 AM
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Kevin, you have my attention when you mention Mustang and 8's in the one breath. I'll have to send you an email to find out more about this one
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Old 04-26-2002, 05:02 AM
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Man,
I love it when you guys talk dirty! Someday I'm going to have all this translated to "redneck" so as I can understand what the hell your talking about!

Somebody pass me a power valve!

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Old 04-26-2002, 08:02 AM
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Craig, Iwould be glad to hook up with you and the az cobra gang when your in town. I have had video problems at speed so I don't have anything really good yet. I saw the spec racer tape at willow. I have never been timed there but I am not as fast as the spec racer, my car might be capable but the driver is not. It sounds like you have your arms around your situation along with your motec advisors. I would diagree with one thing. I had my car on a rear wheel dyno 2 years ago. The tuner was reprogramming the map and had done 30 cars with the speed pro before mine. Afterwords, the car did not run as well on the street. The air fuel was perfect on the dyno but way to rich on the street. The load your motor sees going down the road can not be simulated exactly on a dyno because of weight, traction, gearing, etc.., thus changing the fuel requirements. Again, just my experience, but going down the road in the vehicle with the tires that you will use when you race will get you your optimum tune. I found the tire thing out as my fuel requirement was way different with street bfg's versus warmed up hoosiers. That drove me nuts for a while trying to figure it out. scott
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Old 04-27-2002, 03:08 AM
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DV - I'm just SO FAR out of my depth with this datalogging/fuel injection stuff, but I think I'm slowly getting a grip on it.... It seems like every spare minute is spent thinking about what the next step is in building this car. I can't imagine how you can make a living out of building such specialised cars as the DV2. So many people I speak to that take on such specialised jobs invariably say they charged out a specific job at 25 hours, but they might have spent a further 40 hours just thinking about it!!! At least my thoughts are free - that's surely all they're worth

Scott - I'll get onto Hersh to see if we can organise something with the AZ gang. Sounds great!!! The Motec guy was speaking specifically about an engine dyno. They can put loads onto an engine that a chassis dyno operator could only dream of. I remember a guy that made twin turbo kits for Mustangs used to tear his hair out at guys putting their motors at risk by having them dyno tuned on Dynojet chassis dynos, rather than "Mustang" eddy current power absorption chassis dyno. Many guys had the same problems as you metioned, with the true road loads being significantly higher than the typical Dynojet can duplicate. In a forced induction application, this often resulted in lean motors and melted pistons/cracked ringlands/torched head gaskets etc. That's amazing how tyre traction can change your tune up!!! I hope I do get a chance to see your car
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