Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

Autopen, read above post...

I really don't think these MSO's from Shelby were "auto-penned" after Carroll died. Mike (and Bill) told me these were signed by Carroll a long, long time ago.

David

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

I can't think of any company better to be involved with this project than Kirkham. They are the modern "AC" based on their relationship with SAI and involvement with restorations. Their work is breathtaking and masterful and in my view their cars deserve to be recognized as second generation genuine Cobras. SAAC agrees. Refer to the Registry. Another builder restorer would be McClusky obviously. HRE Motorcars in Freeport LI is also gaining a great reputation as a respected restorer of originals and builder of Continuation series Cobras and GT40s.

It is clear the Kirkham chassis used in their Cobras and supplied to Shelby are the same as the McClusky chassis for the "completion series" as one was reversed engineered from the other and the other reversed engineered from an original. Clones.

Very simply if the MSO for this new Completion series have original signatures then they had to be signed prior to CS's death. When? Who knows. Self evident. If they are duplicate signatures then auto pen. Obviously.

My concern for this "Completion Cobra" project is that they are really misnamed. They are not true completion or resumption cars or whatever synonym you want to use. Putting aside all the great NOS parts, if it does not have an original chassis but carries an original CSX 3000 vin # it is really an "Air Car" as defined by SAAC. None of these new Completion cars was an original car nor did any parts used for them come from an original car. They are new cars using NOS parts never before used on a prior car.

While my Shelby is finished to a very high level of detail which includes the correct seat tracks and knobs, all correct tags and markings, mirrors, correct seat belts, correct carpet, Rebatt style batteries etc...etc...I don't really know if it has the original grommets for the lines, clips, original tie rods and boots, shifter rings etc....and the other nitty gritty details. I do know that what is there is dimensionally correct. Original NOS stuff would all be neat little details to put in during the build if you were even aware enough to do it.

Another concern is if I am buying one of these cars what proof do I have that the nitty gritty parts like a shifter boot for instance or a tie rod is an original NOS part. New reproduction tie rods, new shifter boots, new shifter rings look identical to the old. How do I know that the clips used, grommets are all original NOS parts? Who represents this? Is it in writing? Is their a list as to what is NOS original and what is not that is given to me? If I need a replacement can I get it? Where and from whom? I know I am paying a lot of extra money for this stuff so who is representing I am getting what I am paying for and where is the list of what is original NOS?

There is no doubt that getting these cars aesthetically correct/historically correct is laborious, difficult, time consuming and expensive. This accounts for the difference in price between some Continuation Cobras and other Continuation Cobras. They are not all equal by any means. If historical/aesthetic accuracy is important to you you will have to pay for it. Some scoffed when I indicated that I have a current detailed build sheet from HRE to reproduce CSX 4206 with its original NASCAR 427 SO and all the details would be in excess of $240,000.00.

I do know that the early CSX continuation cars had a lot of details the current ones don't have and a lot of NOS parts Shelby had were used in early cars but stopped in later production. Early CSX Shlebys had things such as Girling brakes, correct suspension, Smith Gauges, Girling reservoirs (I don't know if they are original or repro), even the dimples on the headlight rings, diff coolers, etc....

These new "Completion" cars undoubtedly will be beautiful and extremely detailed and as it was when the originals were new which is amazing, however, I would never spend that kind of money for a car I couldn't even drive. Why it cannot be driven on the street I do not really understand unless the car is being sold as a complete car and therefore must meet DOT regs and clearly can never do so and therefore cannot be driven.

If I were doing one I would insist the car be completed at a dealer so it could be registered for street use.

If owners of original cars have contempt for Continuation Series cars I can only imagine the bile and up roar from them if SAI starts spitting out "new" CSX 3000 series Cobras and referring to them as "Completion Cars" of the "original series" which they clearly are not regardless of how many NOS original parts you stuff into them. If it ain't got an original chassis it cannot be a "completion" Cobra....of course unless SAI is now re-writing the definition of a "Completion" Cobra which I guess they are. However, not even they can change the facts regardless of their self serving re-write.

I would refer to these cars as what they are, Continuation Cobras and give them a special designation suffix. This way it is not purporting to be anything it is not just like the other Shelby Continuation Cobras.

My 2 cents.

This post looks like it was written by a lawyer

In all seriousness, these are very important questions. Frankly, I don't know which original parts will make it on the cars and which ones won't. I imagine Bill and Joe will work that out with the buyer. Some original parts (like original rubber gas lines) are pretty crummy and I wouldn't use them.

David

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by LMH

Probably not but that looks a lot like Sagebrush (Hi Tech) when they were at the airplane hanger in Casa Grande. Both leaf spring and coil spring frames there. Been there many times but shops tend to look a lot alike on the inside.
Larry

Nope,

Not Tim G's place.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by NewYorkGuy

David,
The picture of the chassis frame looks weird. The steel looks old and rusty. Was that a new frame made by McClusky?

Yes, Mike made it. I'm not sure why it was so rusty when we got it (it was only surface rust, not much really). My conjecture is Mike's shop is in Torrance, California and it "fogs" pretty much every morning and makes things damp. Mike is so packed in for space that every morning he moves stuff outside. The fog probably rusted it.

I really didn't care about the rust...I just wanted Mike's chassis to confirm measurements from our other frames we had.

David

[kanuck]

You should get a DNA or in this case Carbon 14 report from a reputable place with every car, sorta like a Birth Certificate only a real one not one of those Obama ones.

Dean

[David Kirkham]

Answers below in RED

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

The more I read about this new "venture" of SAI, the more torn I am about how to feel about it. There is no doubt having Kirkham involved in the manufacture of these cars will assure the highest quality of build and ability to work with the customer to option these cares in any way money can buy and I mean that in the most sincere sense.

However, from the OP's original point, unless someone can show absolute proof that these chassis were built in the 63-67 time period by AC, had the CSX stamped numbers, and all the other parts were original parts (including the body), I can't see any way these can be considered "completion" cars in any way related to the original production. Other than the fact that they will have many original parts and be detailed as close to perfection as Kirkham hands can make them, these are no more or less than highly optioned continuation cars that will be overpriced and have speculation surround them for as long as Cobras are being discussed.

I don't think anyone is claiming these are 60's chassis any more. Certainly Bill and Joe are NOT claiming that. Everyone knows Carroll sprinkled a little snake oil on the story of their origin. My feeling is that snake oil is just part of the Carroll Shelby story. It's just who he was. (There is actually more to the story...maybe one day.)

The chassis started to be built in the late 80's early 90's. I could find an exact date if I asked Mike. Either that or I could look at the date on the drawings Mike gave me so long ago. I have known Mike for 25 years now and he is a dear friend of mine.

The bottom line is they are art. You don't buy these things because they are the ultimate rocket ship to ecstasy. You probably don't even buy them to drive them. (Kirkhams drive much, much better than an original--just ask anyone who has driven both of them.) Guys who buy these likely have SEVERAL Cobras to choose from on any given day.

You own one because they are a unique part of history and because they are beautiful. You own one because they tell a truly wild, uniquely American story that starts in the 90's and still goes on today (just look how long this thread is). On top of all that--their beauty is timeless.



For the stratospheric pricing we can assume will be charged for these cars, they will never be "original" cars in the sense of the 60's cars. And the fact they are bastard children probably related to the fiasco Shelby was involved in in the 80's/90's? will instill a cloud over there existence.
The fact also that a third party is building them also takes away from their provenance, IMHO, as something represented as "completion" of the original series should be manufactured by the original manufacturer IMO.

Now, having Kirkham build these cars could be part of the plan and have some advantages. Since Shelby is selling the cars, but only supplying the parts they may have a plausible explanation to sell these cars in the same way as rollers are sold and a third party installs the drivetrain (and other options). This may make it possible to register them for the street which would be a huge advantage since there don't seem to be many race series that are well suited to Cobras these days and the only other use for an off road Cobra is as art or window dressing.

I am curious about a few things since I've scratch built my Cobra and am aware of the "shortcomings" of the original style frames and the Cobra Restorer's drawings which were patterned after the originals (and my chassis also built to these drawings, I assume). Since Kirkham has gone to considerable expense and trouble to build symmetrical chassis and bodies, doesn't that mean some modifications will have to be made to their bodies to fit these frames? Perhaps David could answer this question better? Or would custom bodies be built just to fit these chassis?

The Cobra Restorers drawings are horrible. I think they are pretty much unusable. I am not saying this to cast any dispersions on Chuck. I think Chuck is a great guy who has helped us tremendously over the years. Those drawing were really the best anyone had for a long, long time. In a way I am grateful for them as all those errors taught me a ton about CAD. (They were made long, long ago before CAD.)

Most of the chassis don't have sub-structure tubes on them so there won't be a problem putting our body on.

This whole discussion is getting more interesting by the day, but still doesn't change the fact this is still the same old song and dance Carrol Shelby has always been known for. With all the discussion surrounding Shelby-Original cars, continuation cars, Anniversary cars, Completion cars, etc.... I guess the old adage applies here- "any press is good press" (paraphrased)

Bob

[REAL 1]

I can't think of any better company than Kirkham to complete such cars or to be involved in such a project. As I said they are the modern AC in my opinion vis a vis second gen Cobras.

Having Kirkham, McClusky or the likes of HRE/Billy Andrews involved in the build would give me a certain level of comfort as to getting what I'm paying for...but I would want a detailed build sheet in writing with all NOS parts identified.

My issue is with SAI.

[thorconstr]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

The more I read about this new "venture" of SAI, the more torn I am about how to feel about it. There is no doubt having Kirkham involved in the manufacture of these cars will assure the highest quality of build and ability to work with the customer to option these cares in any way money can buy and I mean that in the most sincere sense.

However, from the OP's original point, unless someone can show absolute proof that these chassis were built in the 63-67 time period by AC, had the CSX stamped numbers, and all the other parts were original parts (including the body), I can't see any way these can be considered "completion" cars in any way related to the original production. Other than the fact that they will have many original parts and be detailed as close to perfection as Kirkham hands can make them, these are no more or less than highly optioned continuation cars that will be overpriced and have speculation surround them for as long as Cobras are being discussed.

For the stratospheric pricing we can assume will be charged for these cars, they will never be "original" cars in the sense of the 60's cars. And the fact they are bastard children probably related to the fiasco Shelby was involved in in the 80's/90's? will instill a cloud over there existence.
The fact also that a third party is building them also takes away from their provenance, IMHO, as something represented as "completion" of the original series should be manufactured by the original manufacturer IMO.

Now, having Kirkham build these cars could be part of the plan and have some advantages. Since Shelby is selling the cars, but only supplying the parts they may have a plausible explanation to sell these cars in the same way as rollers are sold and a third party installs the drivetrain (and other options). This may make it possible to register them for the street which would be a huge advantage since there don't seem to be many race series that are well suited to Cobras these days and the only other use for an off road Cobra is as art or window dressing.

I am curious about a few things since I've scratch built my Cobra and am aware of the "shortcomings" of the original style frames and the Cobra Restorer's drawings which were patterned after the originals (and my chassis also built to these drawings, I assume). Since Kirkham has gone to considerable expense and trouble to build symmetrical chassis and bodies, doesn't that mean some modifications will have to be made to their bodies to fit these frames? Perhaps David could answer this question better? Or would custom bodies be built just to fit these chassis?

This whole discussion is getting more interesting by the day, but still doesn't change the fact this is still the same old song and dance Carrol Shelby has always been known for. With all the discussion surrounding Shelby-Original cars, continuation cars, Anniversary cars, Completion cars, etc.... I guess the old adage applies here- "any press is good press" (paraphrased)

Bob

As long as it made money, Shelby was good with it.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Jamo

No...so far this is a good thread.

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Bill,

I do limp, but not from that. I took that photo.

If you don't win outright you will get as a parting gift the "Home Edition of the Shelby Frame Game!"

I allude to that (you showed me that picture long ago), yet for others, the secret to where this was taken is "in the picture", you just have to know what you are looking at, that's all.


Bill S.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I allude to that (you showed me that picture long ago), yet for others, the secret to where this was taken is "in the picture", you just have to know what you are looking at, that's all.


Bill S.

I guess I forgot that you had the "secret handshake" of the Brotherhood of Cobra frames, Weybridge chapter.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

I guess I forgot that you had the "secret handshake" of the Brotherhood of Cobra frames, Weybridge chapter.

I actually think I have a Polaroid of several of those pictures floating around in an old camp trunk in my parents basement

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

I can't speak for CA but my understanding is that independent dealers can install the drive train and sell the car and it can be registered. Since they don't manufacture the body and chassis Fed DOT regs are avoided. My understanding.

It must be this way now due to the Federal regs that did not exist in 1965 to 1968. If the DOT regs allowed I am sure SAI would complete the car just as in 1965 to1968 and sell it directly to the dealers or customer. Times have certainly changed and accommodations have to be made to comply with the law.

That may be true of "independent dealers" - that is how the current Cobras, and all of the other replicas, e.g., 32 Ford from Backdraft and the new Corvette from Superformance can be sold as year they replicate. However, as far as I know all of the majors that had in-house installation regardless of where they are, have essentially abandoned it due to the new CA regs.

The difference is Shelby has the status of "manufacturer", and manufacturers can't do that even if they weren't in CA.

[twobjshelbys]

Also, as I read this press release, these cars are not being sold through Shelby American but through the Carroll Shelby Trust. Remember the press release mentions that proceeds will go towards the museum in Gardena and not to the Shelby American stock value. There are advantages to tiered layers of ownership.

I will be making a call tomorrow to the number on the press release and ask these and some other questions.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

I allude to that (you showed me that picture long ago), yet for others, the secret to where this was taken is "in the picture", you just have to know what you are looking at, that's all.


Bill S.

Are you referring to the coil spring main-frame-only frames on the wall?
Larry

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Remember the press release mentions that proceeds will go towards the museum in Gardena and not to the Shelby American stock value. There are advantages to tiered layers of ownership.

This is simply speculation and likely not true, if you've ever audited a non-profit before. There are many methods in extracting monies from non-profits. Also, CNN has had numerous stories on alleged non-profits and where their money is "spent."

Additionally, from the press release:

"A portion of the sale from each 427 Shelby Cobra Competition series car will be donated to help construction of the "Shelby Automotive Museum” in Los Angeles, California, which is now in the design and build stage. This tax exempt 501(9)(3) non-profit public benefit corporation was created by Carroll Shelby to celebrate American racing heritage, including Mr. Shelby's contributions to that history."

[RodKnock]

Cobras are art, especially a polished Kirkham Cobra.

However, this is not about history, since these cars are being completed in Year 2015. These Shelby Cobras are about M-O-N-E-Y. Nothing more, nothing less. What "this" is about is MARKETING, persuading some very wealthy men and women to part with ALOT of money for another "special edition" (Evan, I won't use that word in this response) with some OEM parts, some reproduction parts and a GREAT BUNCH of present-day parts. And they can't be driven, which to me, is a fatal flaw. The bottom line is that the marque continues to be watered down with anniversary models, special editions, etc.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by LMH

Are you referring to the coil spring main-frame-only frames on the wall?
Larry

No sir

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Cobras are art, especially a polished Kirkham Cobra.

However, this is not about history, since these cars are being completed in Year 2015. These Shelby Cobras are about M-O-N-E-Y. Nothing more, nothing less. What "this" is about is MARKETING, persuading some very wealthy men and women to part with ALOT of money for another "special edition" (Evan, I won't use that word in this response) with some OEM parts, some reproduction parts and a GREAT BUNCH of present-day parts. And they can't be driven, which to me, is a fatal flaw. The bottom line is that the marque continues to be watered down with anniversary models, special editions, etc.

Whack! Ouch!
Possibly correct though. If we're being honest it might be hard to argue against. No?

I'm just glad David gets to get his rocks off on all those NOS parts.
Again for similar money (I speculate) I'd rather Larry's car.

[Three Peaks]

David,
This is slightly off subject but if a guy was to scratch build a Cobra these days and try to stay relatively true to the originals and get the advantages of the newer chassis geometry and build quality, where would that person acquire a set of drawings that would work. I've seen the Cobra Restorer's drawings and I agree, they are awful. However, I was able to glean enough information from them to complete my chassis- after scratching my head several times each time I looked at them.

I would love to have a decent set of drawings for reference- not that I'm anxious to start on another scratch build now that mine is finished. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Bob

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Whack! Ouch!
Possibly correct though. If we're being honest it might be hard to argue against. No?

I'm just glad David gets to get his rocks off on all those NOS parts.
Again for similar money (I speculate) I'd rather Larry's car.

My apologies to all, but my sympathies are with the owners of the Shelby Cobras from the 1960's. The real preservationists of history.