Mystery solved. Shelby Trust to sell Real Cobras

[thorconstr]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

The more I read about this new "venture" of SAI, the more torn I am about how to feel about it. There is no doubt having Kirkham involved in the manufacture of these cars will assure the highest quality of build and ability to work with the customer to option these cares in any way money can buy and I mean that in the most sincere sense.

However, from the OP's original point, unless someone can show absolute proof that these chassis were built in the 63-67 time period by AC, had the CSX stamped numbers, and all the other parts were original parts (including the body), I can't see any way these can be considered "completion" cars in any way related to the original production. Other than the fact that they will have many original parts and be detailed as close to perfection as Kirkham hands can make them, these are no more or less than highly optioned continuation cars that will be overpriced and have speculation surround them for as long as Cobras are being discussed.

For the stratospheric pricing we can assume will be charged for these cars, they will never be "original" cars in the sense of the 60's cars. And the fact they are bastard children probably related to the fiasco Shelby was involved in in the 80's/90's? will instill a cloud over there existence.
The fact also that a third party is building them also takes away from their provenance, IMHO, as something represented as "completion" of the original series should be manufactured by the original manufacturer IMO.

Now, having Kirkham build these cars could be part of the plan and have some advantages. Since Shelby is selling the cars, but only supplying the parts they may have a plausible explanation to sell these cars in the same way as rollers are sold and a third party installs the drivetrain (and other options). This may make it possible to register them for the street which would be a huge advantage since there don't seem to be many race series that are well suited to Cobras these days and the only other use for an off road Cobra is as art or window dressing.

I am curious about a few things since I've scratch built my Cobra and am aware of the "shortcomings" of the original style frames and the Cobra Restorer's drawings which were patterned after the originals (and my chassis also built to these drawings, I assume). Since Kirkham has gone to considerable expense and trouble to build symmetrical chassis and bodies, doesn't that mean some modifications will have to be made to their bodies to fit these frames? Perhaps David could answer this question better? Or would custom bodies be built just to fit these chassis?

This whole discussion is getting more interesting by the day, but still doesn't change the fact this is still the same old song and dance Carrol Shelby has always been known for. With all the discussion surrounding Shelby-Original cars, continuation cars, Anniversary cars, Completion cars, etc.... I guess the old adage applies here- "any press is good press" (paraphrased)

Bob

As long as it made money, Shelby was good with it.

[kanuck]

You should get a DNA or in this case Carbon 14 report from a reputable place with every car, sorta like a Birth Certificate only a real one not one of those Obama ones.

Dean

[REAL 1]

I can't think of any better company than Kirkham to complete such cars or to be involved in such a project. As I said they are the modern AC in my opinion vis a vis second gen Cobras.

Having Kirkham, McClusky or the likes of HRE/Billy Andrews involved in the build would give me a certain level of comfort as to getting what I'm paying for...but I would want a detailed build sheet in writing with all NOS parts identified.

My issue is with SAI.

[twobjshelbys]

Also, as I read this press release, these cars are not being sold through Shelby American but through the Carroll Shelby Trust. Remember the press release mentions that proceeds will go towards the museum in Gardena and not to the Shelby American stock value. There are advantages to tiered layers of ownership.

I will be making a call tomorrow to the number on the press release and ask these and some other questions.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Remember the press release mentions that proceeds will go towards the museum in Gardena and not to the Shelby American stock value. There are advantages to tiered layers of ownership.

This is simply speculation and likely not true, if you've ever audited a non-profit before. There are many methods in extracting monies from non-profits. Also, CNN has had numerous stories on alleged non-profits and where their money is "spent."

Additionally, from the press release:

"A portion of the sale from each 427 Shelby Cobra Competition series car will be donated to help construction of the "Shelby Automotive Museum” in Los Angeles, California, which is now in the design and build stage. This tax exempt 501(9)(3) non-profit public benefit corporation was created by Carroll Shelby to celebrate American racing heritage, including Mr. Shelby's contributions to that history."

[RodKnock]

Cobras are art, especially a polished Kirkham Cobra.

However, this is not about history, since these cars are being completed in Year 2015. These Shelby Cobras are about M-O-N-E-Y. Nothing more, nothing less. What "this" is about is MARKETING, persuading some very wealthy men and women to part with ALOT of money for another "special edition" (Evan, I won't use that word in this response) with some OEM parts, some reproduction parts and a GREAT BUNCH of present-day parts. And they can't be driven, which to me, is a fatal flaw. The bottom line is that the marque continues to be watered down with anniversary models, special editions, etc.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Cobras are art, especially a polished Kirkham Cobra.

However, this is not about history, since these cars are being completed in Year 2015. These Shelby Cobras are about M-O-N-E-Y. Nothing more, nothing less. What "this" is about is MARKETING, persuading some very wealthy men and women to part with ALOT of money for another "special edition" (Evan, I won't use that word in this response) with some OEM parts, some reproduction parts and a GREAT BUNCH of present-day parts. And they can't be driven, which to me, is a fatal flaw. The bottom line is that the marque continues to be watered down with anniversary models, special editions, etc.

Whack! Ouch!
Possibly correct though. If we're being honest it might be hard to argue against. No?

I'm just glad David gets to get his rocks off on all those NOS parts.
Again for similar money (I speculate) I'd rather Larry's car.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Whack! Ouch!
Possibly correct though. If we're being honest it might be hard to argue against. No?

I'm just glad David gets to get his rocks off on all those NOS parts.
Again for similar money (I speculate) I'd rather Larry's car.

My apologies to all, but my sympathies are with the owners of the Shelby Cobras from the 1960's. The real preservationists of history.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Cobras are art, especially a polished Kirkham Cobra.

However, this is not about history, since these cars are being completed in Year 2015. These Shelby Cobras are about M-O-N-E-Y. Nothing more, nothing less. What "this" is about is MARKETING, persuading some very wealthy men and women to part with ALOT of money for another "special edition" (Evan, I won't use that word in this response) with some OEM parts, some reproduction parts and a GREAT BUNCH of present-day parts. And they can't be driven, which to me, is a fatal flaw. The bottom line is that the marque continues to be watered down with anniversary models, special editions, etc.

I doubt (but don't know) the buyers will ever drive them. I think they are art. Art simply for art's sake. Keep in mind Bill has an entire warehouse of cars full to the brim that he doesn't drive. He has so many he built racks to stack them up with a forklift. He looks at them. That's what he likes to do. These buyers have a different perspective than many of us.

Bill owns 30 or 40 of our cars. Even if he drives like Ben Hurr he can only drive two at once. During the day he will burn out a couple of times in a Cobra and then drive his truck home. If you met him you'd think he's just a normal guy--because he is. He just happens to be a keen businessman that serves a difficult niche in California.

[YerDugliness]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

Many of us have art in our homes. What use is that? Who cares about a rock someone chiseled on or a canvas someone threw some paint against? Many do. Art is beautiful on its own.

David

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

I doubt (but don't know) the buyers will ever drive them. I think they are art. Art simply for art's sake....These buyers have a different perspective than many of us.

Agreed.

There is always something "unique" about an original piece of art that either cannot be replicated or escapes detection. As an example, I was fortunate enough to be able to spend some time within 3' of Van Gogh's "Starry Night", arguably his most famous painting. It has been one of my favorites for most of my life and despite believing that I was very knowlegable about that painting, I found two issues with which I was not familiar.

1. There is a small part of the canvas, roughly ciruclar and smaller than a dime, where there is no paint.

2. That bright yellow "ring" around the moon...unlike all the other strokes on the painting, those rings are heavily impastoed (if that's a verb, which I doubt). That 3-dimensional aspect is totally invisible in a 2 dimensional "replica", no matter how good the replication. It actually looks like the paint was laid on the canvas from a syringe or tube (like toothpaste) and then separated into segments and "ribbed", looks like someone scraped them with a hair pick (one of those old things used for the "afro" hair style).

I have never seen a "replica" of that painting that included those two details.

So...just as with any piece of "art" (as we all believe the Cobra is!!!), there are minute details that may escape detection when the piece is replicated. Does that diminish the pleasure of the "normal" viewer (one who does not require that each and every detail be replicated perfectly for the piece to be a source of pleasure)...most certainly not, I can assure you from personal experience. Do those minute details make the original UNIQUE in some manner that might make it worth a higher price if offered for sale alongside a number of "replications"? Of course....IMHO.

I could understand how those who own those originals created in the 1960's could feel that even a spot-on replication would fall short of their originals in desirability. Why is that? Well, think of how much effort is required to keep any vehicle in show-quality shape...that, alone, separates those originals from the later replications...all those years of loving care, dedicated to the belief that the best Cobra can be only an original (and, we know that's not true because of the advancements in handling and reliability that may of the replicas offer) will matter to those owners...

Many items are replicated...oriental art.....civil war weapons and "buttons"...but the ones that are most valuable are always the ones created "in antiquity". For Cobra lovers, that period of "...antiquity" can only be the years during the 1960s when Shelby was taking a car without a motor and making it into a terror (which, BTW, was NOT the first time that was done...as has been asserted)....Cadillac motors, which were renowned at the time for their power:weight ratio, were installed in "Allard" vehicles. IIRC they were popular in hill-climbing events...it's probably where Shelby got the idea, as you can read here: Allard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers!

Dugly

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Cobras are art, especially a polished Kirkham Cobra.

However, this is not about history, since these cars are being completed in Year 2015. These Shelby Cobras are about M-O-N-E-Y. Nothing more, nothing less. What "this" is about is MARKETING, persuading some very wealthy men and women to part with ALOT of money for another "special edition" (Evan, I won't use that word in this response) with some OEM parts, some reproduction parts and a GREAT BUNCH of present-day parts. And they can't be driven, which to me, is a fatal flaw. The bottom line is that the marque continues to be watered down with anniversary models, special editions, etc.

I disagree, because of the simple fact it uses all ORIGINAL parts, Kirkhams, New Shelbys and old, like David said, are not as original as these, David I'm surprised you don't get one, they are very cool...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

I disagree, because of the simple fact it uses all ORIGINAL parts, Kirkhams, New Shelbys and old, like David said, are not as original as these, David I'm surprised you don't get one, they are very cool...

No it doesn't use all original parts. That's simply NOT true.

1. The chassis is a modern chassis and not built in 1965.
2. The body is an aluminum Kirkham body, which are thicker than original. And I'm not sure if the bodies are made the same way as they did in 1965.
3. Not the original roll bar, but same size.
4. Not the iron medium riser heads, but new Shelby heads.
5. Reproduction suspension, brake rotors and reproduction Girling brake calipers.
6. No magnesium Halibrands.

I'm sure I'm missing a few things, but chassis and body are the big ones.

[David Kirkham]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Also, as I read this press release, these cars are not being sold through Shelby American but through the Carroll Shelby Trust. Remember the press release mentions that proceeds will go towards the museum in Gardena and not to the Shelby American stock value...

Originally Posted by fordracing65

I disagree, because of the simple fact it uses all ORIGINAL parts, Kirkhams, New Shelbys and old, like David said, are not as original as these, David I'm surprised you don't get one, they are very cool...

I'd rather spend my money on a new Integrex...like the one we just bought. As much as I love these cars, my heart is actually in manufacturing. I just love to make cool things. Go back and read my posts...carefully.

David

[Bernica]

I imagine the next edition of the Cobra Registry will contain a special section detailing the story of these cars and how they came into existence.

[thorconstr]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

I'd rather spend my money on a new Integrex...like the one we just bought. As much as I love these cars, my heart is actually in manufacturing. I just love to make cool things. Go back and read my posts...carefully.

David

You do make some very cool stuff!

[Three Peaks]

Originally Posted by David Kirkham

I'd rather spend my money on a new Integrex...like the one we just bought. As much as I love these cars, my heart is actually in manufacturing. I just love to make cool things. Go back and read my posts...carefully.

David

David,
I do envy you the great toys you get to play with every day. My driving passion behind building a "scratch built" cobra was for the fun of the build and to be as close to an original as I could afford. If I had the machinery you have available I would be like a kid in toyland.
If I lived closer I'd offer to give you a hand getting past your backlog just to work on these cars. Looks like I may be off work for a while here and I would have the time.

Bob

[LMH]

They can't use all original parts as they don't exist. Chassis, suspension, steering, bodies and so on are all going to be reproduced.
Larry

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by LMH

They can't use all original parts as they don't exist. Chassis, suspension, steering, bodies and so on are all going to be reproduced.
Larry

oh, then I hate it...

[LMH]

LOL!
Larry

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by lmh

lol!
Larry

lol....