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  #361 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2021, 10:00 PM
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  #362 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2021, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
No, but your post makes me miss Real1
Fixed it for you
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  #363 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2021, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
How about in three words?

Correct the history!
No disrespect........
Didnt the corrections already happen?

Mile high review:
CSX2049 was wrecked in the 60's, the car was pulled apart and the 1/2 of frame used to reconstruct the current car now in the UK after it was passed along for no doubt $$ only as it was loosy goosy in those days. It does not have the CSX2049 title thus a reconstruction however gorgeous car.

The car in CA was passed through the court system (Lawyers) awarding title on paper to the current owner. The frame once thought a Cobra frame was a 427 frame in the courts and an AC Ace frame in later depictions thought to be of historical value and legend.

CSX2049 is no longer, its taken into the wind by fate and only exists in pictures and stories alone.

That sum it up? Phew!

So much easier to live with a tribute, replica, reincarnation, reconstruction, kit car, custom .......
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Last edited by 1985 CCX; 11-24-2021 at 07:04 AM..
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  #364 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2021, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985 CCX View Post
No disrespect........
Didnt the corrections already happen?

Mile high review:
CSX2049 was wrecked in the 60's, the car was pulled apart and the 1/2 of frame used to reconstruct the current car now in the UK after it was passed along for no doubt $$ only as it was loosy goosy in those days. It does not have the CSX2049 title thus a reconstruction however gorgeous car.

The car in CA was passed through the court system (Lawyers) awarding title on paper to the current owner. The frame once thought a Cobra frame was a 427 frame in the courts and an AC Ace frame in later depictions thought to be of historical value and legend.

CSX2049 is no longer, its taken into the wind by fate and only exists in pictures and stories alone.

That sum it up? Phew!

So much easier to live with a tribute, replica, reincarnation, reconstruction, kit car, custom .......
Yes. I think so. And the wagons have circled probably at least three times. No new information. But he did say in one of the first replies that he had remnants of a frame and was looking for someone to help build an air car. It feels like this is all about trying to dredge up something that will add legitimacy to that above the others that already exist (My air car is better than yours.) For the experts, this seems like baiting and expect to get subpoenaed for a deposition or court appearance. Personally, I'd stay away from adding any more info to this.

I'll add that the latest round of "Shelby must have notified my mom of the lien on the car because my dad owned it and the records were lost in a move". Of course, the alternate, and most likely event, is Shelby notified the owner [from the best info available at the time]. And the mom wasn't it.
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  #365 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2021, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985 CCX View Post
No disrespect........
Didnt the corrections already happen?

Mile high review:
CSX2049 was wrecked in the 60's, the car was pulled apart and the 1/2 of frame used to reconstruct the current car now in the UK after it was passed along for no doubt $$ only as it was loosy goosy in those days. It does not have the CSX2049 title thus a reconstruction however gorgeous car.

The car in CA was passed through the court system (Lawyers) awarding title on paper to the current owner. The frame once thought a Cobra frame was a 427 frame in the courts and an AC Ace frame in later depictions thought to be of historical value and legend.

CSX2049 is no longer, its taken into the wind by fate and only exists in pictures and stories alone.

That sum it up? Phew!

So much easier to live with a tribute, replica, reincarnation, reconstruction, kit car, custom .......
Not so, there is a serious problem with the chain of title, I am awaiting the receipt of the court documents so that I can speak to fact, not hope, I have said all along that I believe that Ann Abidin story is fabricated, yes people have shown paperwork but there are great forgers out there and when you are dealing in multimillion dollar automobiles it has all been tried before, IMO, the story is not over.
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  #366 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2021, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Not so, there is a serious problem with the chain of title, I am awaiting the receipt of the court documents so that I can speak to fact, not hope, I have said all along that I believe that Ann Abidin story is fabricated, yes people have shown paperwork but there are great forgers out there and when you are dealing in multimillion dollar automobiles it has all been tried before, IMO, the story is not over.
Paperwork shown by Ned is "vintage", long before todays modern technology was even on the drawing board to be invented and mass produced. In addition, 2049 in "concours" condition, would not be a "multimillion dollar automobile", on this you have been mislead by "Mr C". You paid him for a story, and since you have yet to post a copy of his report, a story is all you have. Given his reputation for twisting history to suit his own narrative, anything he gave you is suspect from the onset.

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  #367 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2021, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
..., the story is not over.
Yes it is. It's not yours. Never was.

That horse left the barn.

The water is under the bridge.

Good luck though. The only ones that are going to make out in your assertion are the lawyers.
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  #368 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2021, 03:09 AM
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if you compare the CompClassics pictures of the chassis in #5 and Nedsels pictures of the wrecked car in #38, there is no doubt that the chassis is from 2049, the rocker panel cover of the drivers side has exactly the marks of the accident, Connie Moore found that chassis in a Long Beach wrecking yard around 1970, these chassis remains are consistently trackable to David Harts car. I just read the whole story in the new book from Robert D. Walker which dedicates 2049 an eleven pages story.
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  #369 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2021, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Not so, there is a serious problem with the chain of title, I am awaiting the receipt of the court documents so that I can speak to fact, not hope, I have said all along that I believe that Ann Abidin story is fabricated, yes people have shown paperwork but there are great forgers out there and when you are dealing in multimillion dollar automobiles it has all been tried before, IMO, the story is not over.
Michael,

Even if you get all of the court papers, the only thing that might be accomplished from that is you could point out that pictures of parts don't match up with CSX2049. And that the car in California is essentially a replica being attached to a title.

I don't think there will be anything in the court papers that could support your conspiracy theory of forged paperwork. And the only evidence of forged paperwork seems to be something that you imagined in your head as a theoretical explanation for what you think in happened back in 1963.

Like I said earlier, it is possible that your father owned the car in August before the crash and Shelby sent the car to the junkyard and the Abidin family purchased the wreck from the junkyard. That sound like a much more plausible theoretical possibility than forged paperwork.

Another possibility is that the Abidin family always owned the car and your father just drove it. Does it matter if you never saw Ann Abidin at the race track in the pits, etc.?

It seems to me that you want to prove that your father owned the car as a first priority (and as a secondary priority you would like to point out that the California car is merely a replica being attached to a title).

If you want to address the first priority it seems that looking at the court papers will get you absolutely nothing. If you want to address the first priority, I think your only possible chance at this point is to see if there is any living Shebly employee that remembers anything about the wreck of CSX2049 sitting around the shop for 4 or more months. I suggested that before. So why not pursue that instead of the court papers? I have got an idea. Here's a lead for you: https://bre2.net/ There's a phone number. Maybe if you are nice when you call, they will let you talk to Pete Brock. Maybe Pete remembers the wreck. Maybe he doesn't, but he knows another former employee who might remember something. Perhaps someone will remember having to constantly try to contact the Cunningham family to pick up the wreck? Or maybe someone will remember having to constantly try to contact the Abidin family to pick up the wreck? Or maybe nobody alive remembers anything.
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  #370 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2021, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpjb View Post
if you compare the CompClassics pictures of the chassis in #5 and Nedsels pictures of the wrecked car in #38, there is no doubt that the chassis is from 2049, the rocker panel cover of the drivers side has exactly the marks of the accident, Connie Moore found that chassis in a Long Beach wrecking yard around 1970, these chassis remains are consistently trackable to David Harts car. I just read the whole story in the new book from Robert D. Walker which dedicates 2049 an eleven pages story.
I would have to agree with you. It can be well documented as to the path that the majority of the frame (with CSX VIN), at least 2/3 of it, took leading up to the rebuild commissioned by Kress which ultimately became the car that Heart possesses. It would be interesting to inspect Heart’s car to determine the extent of how much of the original 2049 frame pieces were used in the reconstruction. It would be interesting to see if the door hinge bracket (with CSX VIN) was used in the construction as well?

I know from reading the court documents that at least two different experts, one a highly regarded “expert witness” when it comes to Cobras by SAAC, confirmed that the frame in possession of Wesselink and Hasselrig during the court proceedings was that of a Bristol, a frame that was presented to the court by Wesselink and Hasselrig. But why was a frame even presented in the case if it was “stolen”. If the frame was “stolen” why were inspectors inspecting a frame? Why would someone present a frame of the incorrect type to be inspected if the frame was in fact stolen, why? The frame or part of the frame being stolen just does not add up. There are several other inconsistencies in the court documents as well as the testimony by Hasselrig himself as to the purchase of the car, both the time line and the cars background.

It is also documented in the court papers by the person that owned the storage yard that Hasselrig basically stripped the remains of the car of all parts that were of any value and left the frame behind, sounding like it was basically abandoned. In the photos of the Kress frame it looks as though the whole rear suspension/differential area was torched off as an assembly the other 1/3 of the frame, my post #5.

In my opinion we have someone in possession of a California title and someone possession of the physical car in the Netherlands. The stories leading up to these ownerships being somewhat murky to say the least.
The two need to somehow merge in order to make the car complete. Then again is either from the actual 2049?
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Last edited by CompClassics; 11-26-2021 at 05:26 PM..
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  #371 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2021, 05:15 PM
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I don't think "merging the two" would accomplish much, given that the bulk of the original car is long gone. Having the original VIN-stamping (assuming it still exists) on the reconstructed car would likely be of minimal value to an owner, given that 99% of the rest of the car is new. And it goes without saying that even if the two were combined, it would have no effect whatsoever on the supposed Paul Cunningham ownership claim.
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  #372 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2021, 05:33 PM
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I don't think "merging the two" would accomplish much, given that the bulk of the original car is long gone. Having the original VIN-stamping (assuming it still exists) on the reconstructed car would likely be of minimal value to an owner, given that 99% of the rest of the car is new. And it goes without saying that even if the two were combined, it would have no effect whatsoever on the supposed Paul Cunningham ownership claim.
We really wouldn’t know how much of the original frame was used in the reconstruction unless the reconstructed frame was inspected. It is depicted in my post #5 that the frame known to be from 2049 is being dissected, why dissect the frame if you have no intention of using any of the parts from it? I know for a fact that the person that had done this reconstruction had done previous frame reconstructions using portions of the original frames in those reconstructions.
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  #373 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2021, 07:03 PM
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It was said the original frame was bent in the accident, and what was acquired by Connie Moore was roughly the front 60 - 70% of the chassis. I know from photos of the car in the Netherlands that it uses a rack and pinion steering setup. Hence major frame replacement is a given. There appears to be a superfluous bracket from the original worm and sector system welded to the left front of the chassis, and since this is the piece that would have the original VIN on it, its existence here is not that surprising. I believe the Bauerle organization in Addison, IL supplied the chassis, and possibly they could recall how much of the original they mated to the chassis they built.
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  #374 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2021, 11:04 PM
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Just how much of the frame was acquired by Moore is viewable in post #5, the condition can be seen in the photos as well. There are pieces that have obviously been removed and it looks as though the slight upward bend may be attributed to the section that had been removed?

Getting back to my previous question,
1) Why would someone provide a frame for inspection if the frame was stolen?
2) Why would you provide a frame for inspection when the frame is something other than what you are claiming it to be?

I believe the car in the Netherlands needs to be inspected to understand how much or how little of 2049 was used in the reconstruction. The front spring tower could easily be of the correct early type for worm and sector steering but adapted to rack and pinion use.
Yes, the car in the Netherlands is or has been converted to rack and pinion, there are at least a couple of early worm and sector cars that have been converted during their life, CSX2001 and CSX2009 come to mind.
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  #375 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2021, 12:17 AM
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(2009 is actually reconverted to w+s)
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  #376 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2021, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
Just how much of the frame was acquired by Moore is viewable in post #5, the condition can be seen in the photos as well. There are pieces that have obviously been removed and it looks as though the slight upward bend may be attributed to the section that had been removed?

Getting back to my previous question,
1) Why would someone provide a frame for inspection if the frame was stolen?
2) Why would you provide a frame for inspection when the frame is something other than what you are claiming it to be?

I believe the car in the Netherlands needs to be inspected to understand how much or how little of 2049 was used in the reconstruction. The front spring tower could easily be of the correct early type for worm and sector steering but adapted to rack and pinion use.
Yes, the car in the Netherlands is or has been converted to rack and pinion, there are at least a couple of early worm and sector cars that have been converted during their life, CSX2001 and CSX2009 come to mind.
What Connie Moore acquired was actually less than what is shown in post #5. What he had in the back of his pickup at SAAC-4 was a lot less, with the rear of the chassis missing.

As for the frame inspection, who knows. In any event, it has no effect on the link between 2049 and Paul Cunningham.
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  #377 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2021, 04:10 PM
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The person that sent me the photos posted in my post #5 assured me that this is the frame from 2049 and it is the basis for the frame that was used to build the car owned by Heart in the Netherlands. You can see by the photo that it is a substantial amount of what could be considered the frame of a Cobra. Far more than what the owner of the storage company attested to in his court testimony and of a different description of completeness as well.

Last edited by CompClassics; 11-27-2021 at 04:45 PM..
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  #378 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2021, 08:10 PM
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The chassis remains of 2049 that I saw at SAAC-4 in Downingtown, PA in the back of Connie Moore's pickup truck were nowhere near as complete as those in your post #5.
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  #379 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2021, 07:45 AM
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The chassis remains of 2049 that I saw at SAAC-4 in Downingtown, PA in the back of Connie Moore's pickup truck were nowhere near as complete as those in your post #5.
Maybe the pictures in post number #5 are pictures taken earlier than the SAAC 4 timeframe? Like before the frame was cut up into the smaller fragment seen at SAAC 4?

If the pictures from post #5 are from a later time than SAAC 4 then perhaps more pieces of the frame were found after SAAC 4 and reassembled for a later picture (which seems unlikely).

Or (Micheal might be inclined to go with this possibility) there is a forgery wrecked 2049 frame and a real wrecked 2049 frame. After all it would be simple to get some old folk in merry old England (who coincidentally have a 1960s typewriter) to build a nice replica of 2049 that you could wreck on a racetrack and then remove all the other bits to get a fragment of a wrecked frame . When big money is at stake, someone could make a wrecked frame forgery.

Or is it just much more likely that the pictures from post #5 were taken at a timeframe earlier than SAAC 4?

Last edited by 1ntCobra; 11-28-2021 at 07:50 AM.. Reason: graMr
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Old 11-28-2021, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
The chassis remains of 2049 that I saw at SAAC-4 in Downingtown, PA in the back of Connie Moore's pickup truck were nowhere near as complete as those in your post #5.
The pictures from #5 are from the Connie Moore collection. Isn’t it evident that they show the frame when he discovered it at the junkyard? Why should he have cutted away parts of the frame before showing it at SAAC4? Or why should he have added some random parts after SAAC4 for some crappy pictures?
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