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  #161 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2021, 09:49 AM
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very exciting thread,

I would like to sum up what we do might know by now out of this thread:

1. David Harts car is probably an air car

2. The car with the court awarded title to 2049 has no original parts than can be identified as from 2049 (#115) and is therefore probably also an air car

3. The chassis that is claimed by USC Cowboy as the remains of the 2049 chassis, is an ACE chassis

From my understanding the case is still open
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  #162 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2021, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpjb View Post
very exciting thread,

2. The car with the court awarded title to 2049 has no original parts than can be identified as from 2049 (#115) and is therefore probably also an air car
Let's revisit what makes an "air-car:" We use this term when someone literally creates a car "out of thin air," i.e. when they have no legal claim to the VIN. In the case of CSX 2049, when the remains of the original chassis were stolen, the opportunity to reuse the original chassis with the original VIN-stamping was, obviously, taken away from the legal owner improperly. Preserving the right to reconstruct a car using the VIN that was stolen was the basis of the CA court case. In a situation such as this, there is really no alternative.
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  #163 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2021, 04:22 PM
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Was the frame ever reported to the Police or Highway Patrol as being “stolen”, is there official documentation? Is there documentation supporting the “stolen” claim?

Pretty far reach being able to attach a Manufacturer’s VIN number to a new vehicle that they did not build just because it was stolen and never recovered, sounds like a right off to me. At the most maybe the state that is certifying the newly built vehicle may be able to attach a state identification number at most but not an original Manufacturer’s VIN number. That would be like saying that anyone that had their vehicle stolen is allowed to recreate their stolen vehicle and put the stolen vehicles VIN number and call everything good, I just don’t think that is possible.
Sounds like the definition of an “air car” to me, if not there is going to be a run on owners that lost their vehicles to, accidents, being stolen or any other of a number of reasons without relinquishing their titles to purchase those titles from them and get building a vehicle around it. Which is exactly what has happened in this case in my opinion, and I know more than anyone else does about this car and what is being used to create it, more than anyone else on this forum.
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Last edited by CompClassics; 11-01-2021 at 10:07 AM..
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  #164 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2021, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
I do know from actual court document photos (which I have) that the parts that were claimed to be from 2049 in fact were not, unless 2049 became a rack and pinion car with a 427 frame. The court awarded title to 2049 based on the % of amount of parts that were presented by the plaintiff as being from 2049 to the court. Anybody knowing anything about Cobras should have been able to see the parts presented were from a Cobra or Cobras other than 2049 and other than a worm and sector Cobra.
CSX2049 was not a rack and pinion and 427 chassis, it was a 289 with rack and pinion steering at the time of the wreck. There is definitely funny business going on with this Wesselink project car based upon the court making it's determination of title based on fraudulent evidence. JMHO.

Last edited by USC_COWBOY; 10-31-2021 at 06:23 PM.. Reason: clarification
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  #165 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2021, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
CSX2049 was not a rack and pinion and 427 chassis, it was a 289 with rack and pinion steering at the time of the wreck. There is definitely funny business going on with this Wesselink project car based upon the court making it's determination of title based on fraudulent evidence. JMHO.
Are you or someone you are associated with preparing for a lawsuit, or have you filed a lawsuit in regards to your or someone you are associated with claims? If the car was only worth $10,000 in todays market, would you be as headstrong in your belief that your history is 100% correct and you are not relying on a false memory or mistaken memory that was guided by the questions being asked?

Again, just trying to wrap my head around your ultimate, long term goal in this thread.



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  #166 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2021, 06:49 PM
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My activities related to our Cobra CSX2049 was to assist the mechanics, tow it to race tracks along with my friend Tim and to detail it prior to races. Paul was training me to drive competitively as we wanted to drive as a father and son team in the enduro type races but the governing bodies of the racing organizations would not grant competition licenses to anyone under 21 years of age. This angered both Paul and myself because they did allow international drivers under 21 to compete, most notably the Rodriquez brothers (Pedro and Ricardo) of Mexico who I believe were 19 and 17 respectively. Once he let me put on his driving suit, helmet and face shield to take the Cobra out to scuff and warm up the tires.

The one time I did not go to the race was for the Willow Springs race at which he was killed in the accident. I was on a short trip with my fiancee making plans for our wedding on February 14, 1964, and read the Sunday morning Times that he had died. I immediately called my mom and she confirmed his death and asked for me to come home.
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  #167 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2021, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
Are you or someone you are associated with preparing for a lawsuit, or have you filed a lawsuit in regards to your or someone you are associated with claims? If the car was only worth $10,000 in todays market, would you be as headstrong in your belief that your history is 100% correct and you are not relying on a false memory or mistaken memory that was guided by the questions being asked?

Again, just trying to wrap my head around your ultimate, long term goal in this thread.



Bill S.
NO and no.

The value of the car has nothing to do with my efforts to correct the history and Paul's driving career.

I am 78 and do not have the physical nor financial where with all to reconstruct CSX2049. That said I would entertain a project wherein the car could be reconstructed, competed, and eventually sold.
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  #168 (permalink)  
Old 10-31-2021, 08:49 PM
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So it seems to me that this topic has come full circle, maybe twice, and that everything that can be said has been said...
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  #169 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 06:23 AM
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I've followed this thread from the beginning, and (with all due respect to SAAC) my take is only that counterfeit cars are out there. That is my opinion of CSX 2049. As for the stolen parts, that's another case. I am not in favor of creating a new Cobra and titling it as a 1963 Cobra just because you have paper. Some unknowing buyer will eventually be told it's an original Cobra, thus being cheated out of a million dollars (or thereabouts).
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  #170 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
My activities related to our Cobra CSX2049 was to assist the mechanics, tow it to race tracks along with my friend Tim and to detail it prior to races. Paul was training me to drive competitively as we wanted to drive as a father and son team in the enduro type races but the governing bodies of the racing organizations would not grant competition licenses to anyone under 21 years of age. This angered both Paul and myself because they did allow international drivers under 21 to compete, most notably the Rodriquez brothers (Pedro and Ricardo) of Mexico who I believe were 19 and 17 respectively. Once he let me put on his driving suit, helmet and face shield to take the Cobra out to scuff and warm up the tires.

The one time I did not go to the race was for the Willow Springs race at which he was killed in the accident. I was on a short trip with my fiancee making plans for our wedding on February 14, 1964, and read the Sunday morning Times that he had died. I immediately called my mom and she confirmed his death and asked for me to come home.
Once again, I'd like to express my respect and appreciation for Ned and all that he does - including patiently sharing his knowledge with the rest of us here in this thread. I also find it difficult to outright dismiss or disbelieve all of your personal accounts and memories of you and your stepfather's involvement with the car. Maybe I'm just caught up with the sentimental side of the issue; but I can't shake the feeling that there must be some truth in your accounts.

May I politely ask a few questions about what you remember about the car between race events - when it wasn't at the track?

- Where was it kept - did it go home with you and Paul from the track?

- Did Paul state that he actually owned the car as opposed to just campaigning it as the driver?

- Did Paul ever talk about the purchase of the car and it's subsequent conversion to race specs?


I suppose what I'm asking is whether it's possible that Paul Cunningham was given care and custody of CSX2049 by a hands-off owner (Abiden?) while he raced it; and people just assumed that the car was his - or do you remember or have anything specific that can credibly show that he had title?

Thanks for sticking around as well and keeping the dialogue open.
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Last edited by Buzz; 11-01-2021 at 08:14 AM..
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  #171 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 09:53 AM
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I must say, that some of what some people are accusing UC Cowboy of doing in respect of “financial gain” could also be happening with anybody else that has been involved with the car, that is a fact. If these cars were not as valuable as they are today nobody would be spending the money to resurrect a vehicle that had been damaged to the degree this car was.
The value of this car after its crash and in period was in the parts that could be repurposed or resold to others, not in the rebuilding of the car because it was not a collector car at the time as that value did not exist at that time. It was a heavily crashed race car. Not even Shelby rebuilt race cars that were this far gone, and he had the resources and man power to do it. It is my firm belief that this car was parted out in period and the pieces and parts were scattered to the wind, and this is the reason the cars title never changed hand, the car was never reported stolen and the car was never reported as destroyed to the DMV because why bother. When the values of the cars escalated and people realized what they had in their possession people started getting greedy and wanted to make a buck. A number was found on a frame, people realized they still had an ownership stake, all of a sudden you had a multiple people claiming to own the car, because of the value of the car not because the car actually existed any longer. RIP 2049

By the way I edited my previous post and added the last sentence to it.
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Last edited by CompClassics; 11-01-2021 at 10:13 AM..
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  #172 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 10:22 AM
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I pretty much agree. I seriously doubt that either of the two existing cars have much if anything at all of the original car in them and the odds of a significant enough chunk of 2049's wrecked chassis showing up that can be used in even a dubious rebuild/reconstruction are remote.
I'd still like to see the un-manipulated truth about the life and destruction of the car come to light though, as the creative titling efforts vs. USC_Cowboy's sincere sounding recollections leave me feeling that something is missing.
In this day and age of selective truths and realities based on self-interest agendas, it sure would be nice to see something actually set straight.
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  #173 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
This statement needs further clarification as to what I highlighted in red. As far as I can tell at this time, you have a cut up AC Ace chassis, and not that of a Cobra, real, replica, or continuation series.

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Ah. As soon as I saw the name Lance Coren, I knew we were in for a bumpy ride. All I can suggest to Michael is, don't rely on whatever Coren says. Did Lance tell you he attempted to claim 2049 was his many years ago? Did Lance show you the photograph of another Cobra that he claimed was his restored CSX 2049? Did Lance admit that he surrendered his phony CA title to Lanse Hasselrig because the courts made it clear he, not Coren, was the legitimate owner? Probably not. I am aware that Lance Coren saw the remains of Hasselrig's Cobra as well as the 2049 VIN on it at an early SAAC convention, after it had been stolen by the manager of the storage facility where Hasselrig left it. And he was angry, as it cast a shadow on the claim Coren had made that he owned the car. Please do not expect me to accept anything Mr. Coren says, as I have already been down that road way too many times.
I was just thinking about Lynn Park's CSX 2259 replica because that car was created apparently with some left over cut up pieces of the frame allegedly removed from the Shelby dumpster. And I would assume that there was no title to create the car with. I was thinking that would be similar to the case of the CSX 2049 air car in Europe as it was based on a cut up original frame and an illegitimate title.

Keep in mind that the 2018 registry classifies Lynn Park's CSX2259 "as a vintage racer that mimics the original 2259 in appearance and features".

So anyway, I took a glance at my 2018 registry. And interestingly "Lance S Coren" purchased the unfinished CSX 2259 replica from Lynn Park in 1983 and sold it back to Lynn Park in 1987.

And it occurred to me, is that the same Lance Coren mentioned in this thread? Interesting. Could it be that this Lance Coren fellow was trying to somehow create an legitimate title for CSX 2259 to attach it to the replica CSX 2259 to turn it into a real CSX 2259? Maybe when he failed to create a title through some slight of hand he sold the unfinished car back to Lynn because Coren realized the car would never be considered the "real" 2259? That is just speculation on my part, but if Coren tried to create a "real" CSX 2049 in the past, perhaps he also tried to create a "real" CSX 2259 in the past as well.

Last edited by 1ntCobra; 11-01-2021 at 11:01 AM.. Reason: Added the word replica in a couple of places
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  #174 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
NO and no.

The value of the car has nothing to do with my efforts to correct the history and Paul's driving career.

I am 78 and do not have the physical nor financial where with all to reconstruct CSX2049. That said I would entertain a project wherein the car could be reconstructed, competed, and eventually sold.
I don't see any path to get from where you are to where you want to go.

Maybe if somehow you were to discredit the Hasselrig title, wouldn't that just mean there was no longer a legitimage title in anyone's possession? You don't have a title to CSX 2049? How would you get one? Through a lawsuit? Based on what? I don't get it.

I don't see how the cut up frame you have can be tied to CSX 2049 in any way.

Wouldn't it just be easier at this point to just create a replica of CSX 2049? Maybe someone could partner with you to get AC Brooklands or Kirkham to build one?

Or better yet, how about talking to Shelby American and getting them to build a series of CSX 2049 replicas with CSX 7xxx serial numbers? And maybe you get the first one out of the deal - a real nice one with an aluminum body at a hefy discount from your family blessing on the project. You know Shelby likes to do special editions and charge extra for them.

Last edited by 1ntCobra; 11-01-2021 at 11:25 AM.. Reason: Added red highlighting
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  #175 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
Once again, I'd like to express my respect and appreciation for Ned and all that he does - including patiently sharing his knowledge with the rest of us here in this thread. I also find it difficult to outright dismiss or disbelieve all of your personal accounts and memories of you and your stepfather's involvement with the car. Maybe I'm just caught up with the sentimental side of the issue; but I can't shake the feeling that there must be some truth in your accounts.

May I politely ask a few questions about what you remember about the car between race events - when it wasn't at the track?

- Where was it kept - did it go home with you and Paul from the track?

- Did Paul state that he actually owned the car as opposed to just campaigning it as the driver?

- Did Paul ever talk about the purchase of the car and it's subsequent conversion to race specs?


I suppose what I'm asking is whether it's possible that Paul Cunningham was given care and custody of CSX2049 by a hands-off owner (Abiden?) while he raced it; and people just assumed that the car was his - or do you remember or have anything specific that can credibly show that he had title?

Thanks for sticking around as well and keeping the dialogue open.
Thank you for your interest and comments.

Between races the car was kept in our garage or was at the mechanics facilities being prepared for the next event. Usually the car came home with us after the race. Depending on what was to be done it would then go to the mechanic, or in the case of the last Willow Springs Race, it was going to SAI on Monday morning for major upgrades (this is substantiated by a written communication and published account of another driver that had discussed it with him while they were on the starting paddock before the race).

We had other race cars before the CSX2049 Cobra and they were family owned, Paul did drive other racer's cars on request, but not as a regular situation, as he was quite experienced and could then share his opinions on what may be needed to make their cars more competitive, lots of bench racing going on as it's only a part of the game.

The CSX2049 Cobra was already competition race prepared when it arrived at our house, trailered not driven, it was not registered for street use, Powerine Oil was the first and only sponsor while the Cobra was campaigned by Paul. I actually found a check stub from Powerine Oil for payment to Paul for the Willow Springs Race and have never heard of Ann Abidin or her son who some claim hired Paul to drive their car. Didn't happen. Isn't it very strange that an owner of such a state of the art race car, obviously excited about their car, have it converted from street to competition by SAI, then would hire someone to race the car for them and never come to an event, tech inspection, pits, race, post race ceremonies, etc. In addition, on the entry forms for the races and in the race programs never be shown as entrant, owner, sponsor, etc. while we owned the CSX2049 Cobra. Possibly they owned it or another chassis prior to Paul and then sold it before we owned CSX2049.
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  #176 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 01:51 PM
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For those of you on the forum that doubt me and my recollections, I offer this up to you now.

I have always just stated what it was that I recalled or found, as for the frame pieces that ended up in my mom's garage that I found when I cleared her property after her death as the executor of her estate here is the latest.

I wanted to get very specific information regarding the frame pieces in my possession and have been somewhat tight lipped about them because I was awaiting a definitive answer from AC Cars in England. I sent them the photos and asked if they would examine them and give me any information regarding the frame.

They responded this very day...

Hello Mr. Heineke

Thanks for the images.

That is an AC chassis, probably from an AC Aceca circa 1955-1961

It looks like the identification plate has been removed, if that was available we could provide more details

Yours sincerely

AC Cars

I am open and forth-coming unlike some. Now I know for sure what it is, the good the bad and the ugly. As for why it was in my mom's garage, I have no idea. Possibly a gentle gesture of respect that went wrong. The details died with my mom.

So now we have a bit cleaner picture of the history of CSX2049.
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  #177 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 04:10 PM
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Interesting website...

SHELBY MEMORABILIA — VERNON ESTES CLASSICS http://www.vernonestesclassics.com/memorabiliaandparts


All you need to do is buy a blank invoice ($45) on this site, get that old manual typewriter out of your garage and start typing using a real invoice as to correct content for a Cobra sale and VOILA! you have period correct invoice on the correct paper and typewriter.

Present this to someone or court and you to can be a CSX2049 owner.

Just playing around and found out how easy it is to get your hands on invoice material used by Shelby.

RIP CSX2049

Last edited by USC_COWBOY; 11-01-2021 at 04:21 PM.. Reason: errors
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  #178 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Interesting website...

SHELBY MEMORABILIA VERNON ESTES CLASSICS SHELBY MEMORABILIA — VERNON ESTES CLASSICS


All you need to do is buy a blank invoice ($45) on this site, get that old manual typewriter out of your garage and start typing using a real invoice as to correct content for a Cobra sale and VOILA! you have period correct invoice on the correct paper and typewriter.

Present this to someone or court and you to can be a CSX2049 owner.

Just playing around and found out how easy it is to get your hands on invoice material used by Shelby.

RIP CSX2049
To whatever extent you might be suggesting that SAAC or other record-keepers use reproduction paperwork to support some type of malfeasance, I would politely suggest you are 100% wrong. We know exactly what came from the Shelby and Ford archives vs. anything submitted by an owner at a later date, and the latter submissions make us wonder: why wasn't a copy of this in the factory records? The fact is, given what our mission is - to document history truthfully - we don't accept documentation on cars with debated history from owners unless it is corroborated elsewhere. Just so you are aware of how we operate.
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  #179 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2021, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
To whatever extent you might be suggesting that SAAC or other record-keepers use reproduction paperwork to support some type of malfeasance, I would politely suggest you are 100% wrong. We know exactly what came from the Shelby and Ford archives vs. anything submitted by an owner at a later date, and the latter submissions make us wonder: why wasn't a copy of this in the factory records? The fact is, given what our mission is - to document history truthfully - we don't accept documentation on cars with debated history from owners unless it is corroborated elsewhere. Just so you are aware of how we operate.
Ned,

I am not insinuating anything, just pointing out how easy it would be to create bogus documentation. By the way, if you read the details on the referenced/linked site you would see it is real invoices not imitations.
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  #180 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2021, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Ned,

I am not insinuating anything, just pointing out how easy it would be to create bogus documentation. By the way, if you read the details on the referenced/linked site you would see it is real invoices not imitations.
Vernon is well known to this community, selling great SAI items and is a member of this forum.
If someone intends to get criminal by using collector items he is selling, it is not his fault.
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