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  #321 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
In PA I went straight for the title using the Sections 3352(c) and 3353(c) of the Vehicle Code, once the police sent notice (no charge to me) to the last known owner, I can't remember the length of time required, but I could go to the local notary after summary judgement of the abandonment (again, no cost to me) and it was something like $20-$40 for me to apply for the title. Considering the price of metal at that time, I was always guaranteed to turn a profit. My tag shop of preference was not that far from the shop, and was always open late during the week. The loved me as my paperwork was always pre printed, and correct for whatever I was doing. No fuss, review, stamp, make a payment, and the titles showed up in the mail two weeks later. You've been to my old shop, I always had room for another abandoned car

Bill S.
Anyway my point is here that a shop, like yours or Shelby American does not just hold onto a car without trying to get a hold of the owner. The shop will be contacting the owner if the car appears to be abandoned. In MrMustang's case would you wait 4 months before trying to get the title? I am not sure MrMustang would be that patient, but apparently Shelby American was that patient. The letter says that they contacted the DMV, they know who the legal owner is and wanted to pursue a mechanics lien. It appears that the letter was probably to a lawyer. That seems like Shelby American is dotting their i's and crossing their t's to make sure that they can dispose of the wreck without any legal problems later. The wreck in 1967 was in as crashed condition. Shelby American was not removing parts before sending the wreck to the junk yard probably to get full scrap value for it. Keep in mind it is much simpler to call up the owner periodically to ask them to pick up the wreck than to get a lawyer involved. So when Michael is saying that his family was never contacted by Shelby about getting the wreck back, it would appear to me that if his mom is the legal owner, she is ignoring the calls and letters from Shelby, OR his family is not the legal owner of the car as found out by Shelby through the DMV. Is it possible that the DMV had a mix up and told Shelby American the wrong name and contact for the legal owner? That sounds unlikely if Shelby American contacted the bank, about the loan for CSX2049 as that would have confirmed the name and contact of the legal owner.

It is also a bit odd that Michael did not make an effort to go over to Shelby American after a week or less and ask to get the wreck back himself, but maybe he is busy dealing with a distraught mother who needs to deal with a funeral and settling an estate. Still is Michael just going to go for months or more without asking Shelby American are they done with the wreck yet?

Anyway if Shelby American got the mechanics lien and sent the wreck to a junk yard, the wreck became the property of Shelby American and then the property of the junk yard. In that case if Paul was the legal owner at the time of the crash, the Cunningham family was no longer the legal owner after the mechanics lien went through.
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  #322 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 05:38 PM
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... deleted some stuff ...

You've been to my old shop, I always had room for another abandoned car

Bill S.
Yeah there was room inside for abandoned cars, a semi-trailer truck, plus various mustangs and the occassional Cobra replica that you were cleaning up to flip. Plus you were running a body shop too.
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  #323 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 05:38 PM
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Well I am terrible at keeping secrets. So I will show the back of the pedal.

The pedal with the prototype logo on the front has what appears to be Moon-Eyes and the number 2001 on it. I don't know what the significance of those markings might be.

I am about two miles from Dean Moon's place, a mecca for some of us.
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  #324 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 05:52 PM
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Anyway my point is here that a shop, like yours or Shelby American does not just hold onto a car without trying to get a hold of the owner. The shop will be contacting the owner if the car appears to be abandoned. In MrMustang's case would you wait 4 months before trying to get the title? I am not sure MrMustang would be that patient, but apparently Shelby American was that patient. The letter says that they contacted the DMV, they know who the legal owner is and wanted to pursue a mechanics lien. It appears that the letter was probably to a lawyer. That seems like Shelby American is dotting their i's and crossing their t's to make sure that they can dispose of the wreck without any legal problems later. The wreck in 1967 was in as crashed condition. Shelby American was not removing parts before sending the wreck to the junk yard probably to get full scrap value for it. Keep in mind it is much simpler to call up the owner periodically to ask them to pick up the wreck than to get a lawyer involved. So when Michael is saying that his family was never contacted by Shelby about getting the wreck back, it would appear to me that if his mom is the legal owner, she is ignoring the calls and letters from Shelby, OR his family is not the legal owner of the car as found out by Shelby through the DMV. Is it possible that the DMV had a mix up and told Shelby American the wrong name and contact for the legal owner? That sounds unlikely if Shelby American contacted the bank, about the loan for CSX2049 as that would have confirmed the name and contact of the legal owner.The car was not purchased for street use (not involving the DMV), it was always trailered and was probably not financed through the normal channels

It is also a bit odd that Michael did not make an effort to go over to Shelby American after a week or less and ask to get the wreck back himself, but maybe he is busy dealing with a distraught mother who needs to deal with a funeral and settling an estate.Yes, I had my hands full. Still is Michael just going to go for months or more without asking Shelby American are they done with the wreck yet? I had no idea how long Shelby would be in examining the car, it was a total and at that time I didn't have any idea of it(the wreck) being valuable, and in the bigger picture I had just lost my dad, my mother was a mess, a 6 year old half-sister, a drunken uncle and an air-head aunt. Pretty much on my own as a newly drafted male head of household.

Anyway if Shelby American got the mechanics lien and sent the wreck to a junk yard, the wreck became the property of Shelby American and then the property of the junk yard. In that case if Paul was the legal owner at the time of the crash, the Cunningham family was no longer the legal owner after the mechanics lien went through.
So when Michael is saying that his family was never contacted by Shelby about getting the wreck back, it would appear to me that if his mom is the legal owner, she is ignoring the calls and letters from Shelby, OR his family is not the legal owner of the car as found out by Shelby through the DMV. Is it possible that the DMV had a mix up and told Shelby American the wrong name and contact for the legal owner? That sounds unlikely if Shelby American contacted the bank, about the loan for CSX2049 as that would have confirmed the name and contact of the legal owner.The car was not purchased for street use (not involving the DMV), it was always trailered and was probably not financed through the normal channels

It is also a bit odd that Michael did not make an effort to go over to Shelby American after a week or less and ask to get the wreck back himself, but maybe he is busy dealing with a distraught mother who needs to deal with a funeral and settling an estate.Yes, I had my hands full. Still is Michael just going to go for months or more without asking Shelby American are they done with the wreck yet? I had no idea how long Shelby would be in examining the car, it was a total and at that time I didn't have any idea of it(the wreck) being valuable, and in the bigger picture I had just lost my dad, my mother was a mess, a 6 year old half-sister, a drunken uncle and an air-head aunt. Pretty much on my own as a newly drafted male head of household.
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  #325 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Paul purchased a race car, not a street vehicle. IMO, it did not require a DMV registration as the car was never operated on the street. Also, note that I previously declared that Lance Coren was never an expert for me, I had a very different expert assisting me, one that is not named in any of these discussion threads.
Maybe your unnamed expert can get you a copy of the documents from the court case involving the title if the records are available to the public.

Maybe your expert could also see if the Shelby American controller from April 1964 is still alive and interview him to see if he recalls a mechanics lean on a wreck they were storing for over 4 months.
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  #326 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 06:43 PM
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I've tried to be as open as I can be with you all, I've shared some really personal information and have opened up some old wounds. Previously someone questioned my state of mind and whether or not I could have coped with the family circumstances after Paul's death.

On his death, I became the male head of household, my mom was a mess )as she was at the track and saw it all, chased the ambulance to Tehachapi, dealt with the mortuary, etc.), now owned the family business that had recently been offered $1,000,000 by a competitor he used to work for before he went on his own, a six year old half-sister, a drunken uncle (Paul's brother), had to drop out of my sophomore year classes at California State College at Fullerton (about 10 miles from our home in Orange, California). I was able to be home at that time now as I now had no classes or job. I was not at the Willow Springs Race as my fiancee and myself were making our wedding plans for February 14, 1964. I read about his death in the Sunday Times newspaper, called home and confirmed with my mom that dad had been killed as I didn't believe it could be true. I immediately returned home.

Also, my mom moved back to Illinois in late summer, August or September of 1964.
That was the move wherein all of Paul's racing memorabilia was lost/stolen as it did not arrive in Illinois.

As new questions arise about my family I will do my best to share with you, within reason. I hope you understand.
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  #327 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 06:58 PM
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Maybe your unnamed expert can get you a copy of the documents from the court case involving the title if the records are available to the public.

Maybe your expert could also see if the Shelby American controller from April 1964 is still alive and interview him to see if he recalls a mechanics lean on a wreck they were storing for over 4 months.
I have been unable to communicate with my "expert" for over 5 years, I believe he died as the last time I saw him he did not look well. He was not a personal friend so I did not feel comfortable with nor thought it was my right to question his health. At that time he did assist me in acquiring a period correct 289ci engine (January 3, 1963 manufacture) and a front clip for a 289ci Mark II. I originally had in mind to rebuild a car, that now is not possible due to my age and health issues.

I am checking into how I can review or obtain the court records through the California Superior Court system. Lot's of red-tape so far. Anyone out there want to send me a copy use michael@heinekegroup.com.
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  #328 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
So when Michael is saying that his family was never contacted by Shelby about getting the wreck back, it would appear to me that if his mom is the legal owner, she is ignoring the calls and letters from Shelby, OR his family is not the legal owner of the car as found out by Shelby through the DMV. Is it possible that the DMV had a mix up and told Shelby American the wrong name and contact for the legal owner? That sounds unlikely if Shelby American contacted the bank, about the loan for CSX2049 as that would have confirmed the name and contact of the legal owner.The car was not purchased for street use (not involving the DMV), it was always trailered and was probably not financed through the normal channels

It is also a bit odd that Michael did not make an effort to go over to Shelby American after a week or less and ask to get the wreck back himself, but maybe he is busy dealing with a distraught mother who needs to deal with a funeral and settling an estate.Yes, I had my hands full. Still is Michael just going to go for months or more without asking Shelby American are they done with the wreck yet? I had no idea how long Shelby would be in examining the car, it was a total and at that time I didn't have any idea of it(the wreck) being valuable, and in the bigger picture I had just lost my dad, my mother was a mess, a 6 year old half-sister, a drunken uncle and an air-head aunt. Pretty much on my own as a newly drafted male head of household.
Ok, you had a lot of bigger problems going on with family and planning on moving to another state than to think about the wreck at Shelby American. You say you didn't realize the wreck would be valuable. Being a competition car, you family could not make an insurance claim on it to recover the cost. If you did get the wreck back, you don't really want it in your driveway or garage to remind your distraught mother about the horrible crash. Realistically if you got the wreck back, and you have no clue it will some day be valuable and don't want it upsetting your mom, I suspect that you would most likely have sold it for scrap yourself and got the equivalent of a few hundred dollars in today's money. Anyway if you sold the car for scrap or Shelby sold it for scrap for being abandoned, does it really matter that someone else could purchase the wreck from the junk yard and own it and try to "restore" it?

There may or may not be some frame parts in the European car, but that car doesn't have a legitimate title. There is a title without any real parts from the wreck in California. I guess you could discredit the California car as just a replica if it gets finished. After all CompClassics doesn't want to touch that project he after researched it. He considers CSX2049 to no longer exist.

If you want a car, but lost the title back in 1964, I think the best that you will be able to do is build a nice replica of your father's car, but I don't think you have the time or the money to do that.

So at this point it seems that your focus is to get the registry to say your father owned the car. I don't know where you will be able to find any paper work to support that claim now. Perhaps your best bet would be to find one or more living Shelby American employees who remembers the abandoned wreck. Employees who remember the wreck being in the way and remember how Shelby's secretary and comptroller were repeatedly trying to contact Paul's widow about taking the wreck back. I don't know if any living employee will remember that, but maybe getting an affidavit from one or more Shelby employees to back up your story of Paul owning the car would be enough evidence for Ned?
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  #329 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 07:28 PM
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I've tried to be as open as I can be with you all, I've shared some really personal information and have opened up some old wounds. Previously someone questioned my state of mind and whether or not I could have coped with the family circumstances after Paul's death.

On his death, I became the male head of household, my mom was a mess )as she was at the track and saw it all, chased the ambulance to Tehachapi, dealt with the mortuary, etc.), now owned the family business that had recently been offered $1,000,000 by a competitor he used to work for before he went on his own, a six year old half-sister, a drunken uncle (Paul's brother), had to drop out of my sophomore year classes at California State College at Fullerton (about 10 miles from our home in Orange, California). I was able to be home at that time now as I now had no classes or job. I was not at the Willow Springs Race as my fiancee and myself were making our wedding plans for February 14, 1964. I read about his death in the Sunday Times newspaper, called home and confirmed with my mom that dad had been killed as I didn't believe it could be true. I immediately returned home.

Also, my mom moved back to Illinois in late summer, August or September of 1964.
That was the move wherein all of Paul's racing memorabilia was lost/stolen as it did not arrive in Illinois.

As new questions arise about my family I will do my best to share with you, within reason. I hope you understand.
Hmm, what if your father's family business was the legal owner of CSX2049, as opposed to your father being the owner? Could it be that Shelby employees are trying to call the family business about picking up the business's wrecked racecar and your company's receptionist answers the phone with "What's this nonsense about a wrecked racecar you keep calling about? Please stop calling me!"?

Last edited by 1ntCobra; 11-18-2021 at 07:30 PM.. Reason: mising word
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  #330 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2021, 07:33 PM
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I have been unable to communicate with my "expert" for over 5 years, I believe he died as the last time I saw him he did not look well. He was not a personal friend so I did not feel comfortable with nor thought it was my right to question his health. At that time he did assist me in acquiring a period correct 289ci engine (January 3, 1963 manufacture) and a front clip for a 289ci Mark II. I originally had in mind to rebuild a car, that now is not possible due to my age and health issues.

I am checking into how I can review or obtain the court records through the California Superior Court system. Lot's of red-tape so far. Anyone out there want to send me a copy use michael@heinekegroup.com.
If CompClassics is familiar with the trial, maybe he knows information like a case number, date, court house or something that would be useful in getting a copy of the information.
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  #331 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2021, 05:00 AM
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Hindsight is always 20-20. We cannot change the past, even if it haunts us to no end. You know what you would have done NOW, but back then you were a distraught kid who lost his dad. I can identify with that, and I feel for you. You just can't change it, except for the disclosure of the 'new' CSX 2049, which is noted. You've done your best, and I for one believe Paul owned his Cobra at the time of his death.
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  #332 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2021, 08:21 AM
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I am checking into how I can review or obtain the court records through the California Superior Court system. Lot's of red-tape so far. Anyone out there want to send me a copy use michael@heinekegroup.com.
You might want to try going directly to the court reporter's agency that the lawyers used not only for the trial and hearing transcripts but, most importantly, pre-trial witness depositions. Contact that agency, or its successor, and see if they'll sell them to you. There's a ton of stuff in depositions that never make it in to a court record (which has probably been lost or destroyed by now) and reading the witness depos just might give you some answers, and maybe some peace of mind. Try shooting Ned a polite PM and, in your most conciliatory and plaintive Mother May I tone, ask him if he'll tell you the reporting agencies that they used. That may be a short cut to getting what you want.
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Old 11-19-2021, 07:11 PM
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I have been unable to communicate with my "expert" for over 5 years, I believe he died as the last time I saw him he did not look well. He was not a personal friend so I did not feel comfortable with nor thought it was my right to question his health. ].
Did this person possibly have the initials R.C. ?
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Old 11-20-2021, 08:26 AM
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No. I am just an "Abnormal CC Member" as usual.

Hmm, does your friend happen to have an Edsel stationwagon?
I would point out there is nothing wrong with having an Edsel station wagon.
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  #335 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2021, 09:27 AM
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I would point out there is nothing wrong with having an Edsel station wagon.
That explains a lot about your "formative years"
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Old 11-20-2021, 03:37 PM
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I was told if you haven't grown up by age 60, you don't have to. I am therefore still in my "formative" years.
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  #337 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2021, 06:20 PM
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Did this person possibly have the initials R.C. ?
Yes, they are
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  #338 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2021, 06:22 PM
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I would point out there is nothing wrong with having an Edsel station wagon.
Kinda sexy in a strange way.JMHO
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  #339 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2021, 07:17 PM
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Yes, they are
I will guess the investigator you were working with was named Richard ********. If that is correct, you were right to believe he is no longer with us. He is the same individual who said he was working with the FBI and sent us a totally incorrect history of 2049 that made it into the 2008 Registry before we learned he was full of $#!+. He had a brain tumor that his doctor said had rendered critical thought impossible for many years. He left a wonderful trail of lies for SAAC to try and undo for years to come.
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Old 11-21-2021, 12:55 AM
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@ Ned, anybody that's on this site is a 1/2 bubble off anyway But if we liked Edsel's maybe a full bubble I was too young to know the grill looked like a certain Lady's body part, I though COOL it look's like a car that sucked a Lemon, it had personally. I may have helped talked my Grandpa into one, he had a grand sense of humor. Cheers TommyRot.
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