Researching any info re: Paul Cunningham, Competition Cobra privateer

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Michael, your allegations are certainly interesting. I note that you gloss over my request for any possible documentation showing Paul Cunningham owned CSX 2049 in favor of complaining that the SAAC Registry has not, in your opinion, provided sufficient evidence to show the car was owned by Abiden or Hasselrig. In spite of photos and paperwork. OK, we'll see what else might be out there. I have a copy of the invoice of 2049 to Downtown Ford, but it doesn't tell us anything relevant to your inquiries.

I disagree with your value guesstimates, as it has been discussed here thoroughly that the remains of 2049 are no longer attached to its legal paperwork, hence any car associated with it in the future will clearly be a reconstructed vehicle absent major original parts. That won't be worth $2-5 million. And I would point out that when Lance Hasselrig's quest to prove his ownership began, the value of these cars was nothing close to what it is today, and I dispute the idea that financial gain was the primary motivation for spending the kind of money an effort such as this would cost in legal fees, not to mention exposure via the CA court system.

Ned, I have not glossed over your request, I thought that I previously stated that all of my families race car and related information was lost by the moving company that moved my mother and sister to and from Illinois just after Paul's death. I have nothing from the 1963 or before era, all of Paul's racing stuff was lost. The documents and what little memoribilia that I have now came from my long quest that began in 2003 or so. I even was able to track down the people responsible for the liquidation of the Powerine Oil Company and their records and salvaged materials from them relating to the Cobra and Paul.

My quest continues, I want for the record to be correct and truthful, that's the best I can do in remembrance of Paul Cunningham.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Michael, your allegations are certainly interesting. I note that you gloss over my request for any possible documentation showing Paul Cunningham owned CSX 2049 in favor of complaining that the SAAC Registry has not, in your opinion, provided sufficient evidence to show the car was owned by Abiden or Hasselrig. In spite of photos and paperwork. OK, we'll see what else might be out there. I have a copy of the invoice of 2049 to Downtown Ford, but it doesn't tell us anything relevant to your inquiries.

I disagree with your value guesstimates, as it has been discussed here thoroughly that the remains of 2049 are no longer attached to its legal paperwork, hence any car associated with it in the future will clearly be a reconstructed vehicle absent major original parts. That won't be worth $2-5 million. And I would point out that when Lance Hasselrig's quest to prove his ownership began, the value of these cars was nothing close to what it is today, and I dispute the idea that financial gain was the primary motivation for spending the kind of money an effort such as this would cost in legal fees, not to mention exposure via the CA court system.

My guesstimate of $2-$5 million I believe would be a legitimate value for a very early factory competition prepared Mark II Cobra, it would require the reacquiring the actual remaining CSX2049 parts and pieces, incorporation of the actual parts and pieces in a correct frame with an aluminum body, paint, stripes, etc. it would probably require me, as the only living family member, to provide a sworn affidavit as to the authenticity and file all related information with the California DMV to obtain a correct title.

Then and only then would my guesstimate be relevant.

[twobjshelbys]

You try to make it sound like Shelby did something sinister. They did what is normal practice in the auto repair industry. If Shelby had a pile of parts, and that is iffy, and assuming the owner was contacted about removing them, then the only way to legally dispose of them is to declare them abandoned and get a mechanics lien title. It's done frequently by auto repair shops that get abandoned vehicles.

It's a clever move. I've got a car that is beyond repair. I took it to the shop to get it fixed. Repairs are $2K for a new engine or $300 to dispose of it at the junk yard. So I just leave it at the repair shop. Eventually repair shop will get tired of it sitting there, lien it, and eventually he'll have to pay the $300.

I still don't understand your motivation. You keep saying that you just want the history recorded, yet you keep circling back on making an air car out of some pile of parts somewhere. (Else why would you be so interested in a projected value? It's value today is scrap.) The Cobra community is too wise now to believe that if 2049 magically appears next week that it isn't highly suspicious.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

It's a clever move. I've got a car that is beyond repair. I took it to the shop to get it fixed. Repairs are $2K for a new engine or $300 to dispose of it at the junk yard. So I just leave it at the repair shop. Eventually repair shop will get tired of it sitting there, lien it, and eventually he'll have to pay the $300.

This is 100% accurate. when I had my bodyshop, I got stuck with dozens of cars like this. After the first two dozen, I got smart enough to not allow them to collect their belongings from the storage part of my yard without delivery of title. In other cases, I was smart enough to ask what they wanted for it, buy it, await title, then sell it off for a small profit.

Bill S.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

You try to make it sound like Shelby did something sinister. They did what is normal practice in the auto repair industry. If Shelby had a pile of parts, and that is iffy, and assuming the owner was contacted about removing them, then the only way to legally dispose of them is to declare them abandoned and get a mechanics lien title. It's done frequently by auto repair shops that get abandoned vehicles.

It's a clever move. I've got a car that is beyond repair. I took it to the shop to get it fixed. Repairs are $2K for a new engine or $300 to dispose of it at the junk yard. So I just leave it at the repair shop. Eventually repair shop will get tired of it sitting there, lien it, and eventually he'll have to pay the $300.

I still don't understand your motivation. You keep saying that you just want the history recorded, yet you keep circling back on making an air car out of some pile of parts somewhere. (Else why would you be so interested in a projected value? It's value today is scrap.) The Cobra community is too wise now to believe that if 2049 magically appears next week that it isn't highly suspicious.

You don't have to pay to dispose of a car at a junk yard. The junk yard will pay you even if they have to send a tow truck to get it. It seems the going rate for a beater with more than 200k miles on it is about $400. I know I got $400 earlier in the year for an old Altima that my son got as a hand me down from my father. My son crashed it into a divider wall getting off an exit of the PA turnpike. It was sort of drivable, so I managed to drive it several miles to my parent's house. I arranged for a company I found on the internet to get the car. They paid cash to my parents. Actually they accepted the car without the title in hand too because it was obviously beyond repair. I may have later just scanned a copy of the title and emailed it to them.

About 6 years ago, my Civic died with 283K miles on it. I had it towed to my local shop by AAA. The shop said the crankshaft pulley key had failed wrecking the crankshaft. I dropped off the title at my local shop, called a place to pick it up the car for junk. I think I got between $200 and $300 back then, but that was 6 years ago.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

You don't have to pay to dispose of a car at a junk yard. The junk yard will pay you even if they have to send a tow truck to get it.

Yes, and no, the junkyard cannot legally take the car and actually use it for parts, or crush it for scrap without the title. Sure it can be towed to a storage lot, either at the junkyard or elsewhere, where it will accrue "storage fees" (some months, I made more on storage fees than I did on the actual repair of a vehicle) but there it will sit collecting dust until legal ownership is obtained.

Bill S.

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

but there it will sit collecting dust until legal ownership is obtained.

Bill S.

Which in the absence of a cooperating owner is accomplished with a mechanics lien.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

Which in the absence of a cooperating owner is accomplished with a mechanics lien.

100% correct

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by twobjshelbys

You try to make it sound like Shelby did something sinister. They did what is normal practice in the auto repair industry. If Shelby had a pile of parts, and that is iffy, and assuming the owner was contacted about removing them, then the only way to legally dispose of them is to declare them abandoned and get a mechanics lien title. It's done frequently by auto repair shops that get abandoned vehicles.

It's a clever move. I've got a car that is beyond repair. I took it to the shop to get it fixed. Repairs are $2K for a new engine or $300 to dispose of it at the junk yard. So I just leave it at the repair shop. Eventually repair shop will get tired of it sitting there, lien it, and eventually he'll have to pay the $300.

I still don't understand your motivation. You keep saying that you just want the history recorded, yet you keep circling back on making an air car out of some pile of parts somewhere. (Else why would you be so interested in a projected value? It's value today is scrap.) The Cobra community is too wise now to believe that if 2049 magically appears next week that it isn't highly suspicious.

The point being that the Cunningham family was never notified or alerted by SAI that they were done with their post wreck examination of the car. We obviously were entitled to get the car back. Where is the correspondence? Where is the notice of sale? Where is the SAI report on the wrecked car findings? I want the records to be correct, I want the ownership corrected and the proper history attached to Paul's involvement with CSX2049.
Everyone else in this discussion gets a pass and can hide behind their lack of proof/evidence; but the sole surviving family member is castigated for wanting the truth. Talk about circling the wagons.

I suggest you go back and read this thread from the beginning and please take note of what evidentiary documentation is conveniently missing. Look at how the same players keep showing up with their questionable actions involving not only CSX2049 but several other wrecked Cobras. Sure seems to me that there is an adopted process/recipe for resurrecting wrecked Cobras under very suspicious circumstances.

I hope others on this CC forum will chime in with their own stories of resurrected Cobras under suspicious circumstances, this chassis is far from being the only one.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

I hope others on this CC forum will chime in with their own stories of resurrected Cobras under suspicious circumstances, this chassis is far from being the only one.

Dang, I'm rooting for you. A 77 year old man that wants to solve a decades old family mystery before he dies. I get it; we all get it. But you're marching uphill against turf, control, transparency and ego (and I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in particular). The majority of us on this forum are all men in their 60's and 70's, so we do indeed get it. I think we're all rooting for you. Most of us, that is.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Dang, I'm rooting for you. A 77 year old man that wants to solve a decades old family mystery before he dies. I get it; we all get it. But you're marching uphill against turf, control, transparency and ego (and I'm not pointing a finger at anyone in particular). The majority of us on this forum are all men in their 60's and 70's, so we do indeed get it. I think we're all rooting for you. Most of us, that is.

Thank you

[sunman]

Paul started saying he owned the car last weekend of July. Nobody said otherwise. Bank shows note paid off shortly after. I believe Paul’s cash paid the note.
After accident #37 goes to SAI because no way it goes to Paul’s house to be a tragic reminder of what happened sitting in the driveway.
If Paul owned the car Curry the lawyer would have to file in probate for legal title.
He probably did. Then sold it in the lien auction to Ann.
If Paul owned CSX2049 and Curry didn’t use probate its still Paul’s car.
Or his heirs.
Can you check probate records? Everything Paul legally owned would be listed.
He was kinda young to have will.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by sunman

Paul started saying he owned the car last weekend of July. Nobody said otherwise. Bank shows note paid off shortly after. I believe Paul’s cash paid the note.
After accident #37 goes to SAI because no way it goes to Paul’s house to be a tragic reminder of what happened sitting in the driveway.
If Paul owned the car Curry the lawyer would have to file in probate for legal title.
He probably did. Then sold it in the lien auction to Ann.
If Paul owned CSX2049 and Curry didn’t use probate its still Paul’s car.
Or his heirs.
Can you check probate records? Everything Paul legally owned would be listed.
He was kinda young to have will.

All good possibilities. Yet the investigation performed back in 1980 by USC Cowboy's expert, Lance Coren, who was at the time an insurance recovery expert with access to the CA and other state's DMV - including records that were't computerized, via a "hand-search" - turned up only Ann Abiden and Lanse Haselrig as listed owners. Coren further stated in his letter (see my post, #55) that Abiden is shown as the original owner, having purchased 2049 in 1963 and sold it in 1967. Some of his dates and details are off, but he apparently located the same printed DMV records I have presented previously.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

All good possibilities. Yet the investigation performed back in 1980 by USC Cowboy's expert, Lance Coren, who was at the time an insurance recovery expert with access to the CA and other state's DMV - including records that were't computerized, via a "hand-search" - turned up only Ann Abiden and Lanse Haselrig as listed owners. Coren further stated in his letter (see my post, #55) that Abiden is shown as the original owner, having purchased 2049 in 1963 and sold it in 1967. Some of his dates and details are off, but he apparently located the same printed DMV records I have presented previously.

Did Lance Coren provide any copies of documents from his "hand-search" of government records that would indicate that Ann Abiden was the original owner or how she purchased the car from Hi Performance Motors on 11/2/62 which is prior to the date that the car was billed to Shelby American, 11/13/62 (from the 4th edition registry).

From reading 4th edition of the registry, it seems that Harry S and Peter Rothschild were the original owners. So at the time of the 4th editition registry you did not believe that Ann was the original owner as stated in Lance Coren's letter.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Did Lance Coren provide any copies of documents from his "hand-search" of government records that would indicate that Ann Abiden was the original owner or how she purchased the car from Hi Performance Motors on 11/2/62 which is prior to the date that the car was billed to Shelby American, 11/13/62 (from the 4th edition registry).

From reading 4th edition of the registry, it seems that Harry S and Peter Rothschild were the original owners. So at the time of the 4th editition registry you did not believe that Ann was the original owner as stated in Lance Coren's letter.

The Rothschild's did not own the Cobra, they only sponsored it, I have check stub showing payment as sponsor.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Did Lance Coren provide any copies of documents from his "hand-search" of government records that would indicate that Ann Abiden was the original owner or how she purchased the car from Hi Performance Motors on 11/2/62 which is prior to the date that the car was billed to Shelby American, 11/13/62 (from the 4th edition registry).

From reading 4th edition of the registry, it seems that Harry S and Peter Rothschild were the original owners. So at the time of the 4th editition registry you did not believe that Ann was the original owner as stated in Lance Coren's letter.

I have provided copies of Ann Abiden's registration renewal for CSX 2049 from 1964. They reflect the same data Coren discovered in the DMV files. And post #44 discusses the how's and why's of the odd data that was submitted for the 2049 footnote in the 4th edition of the Registry. We have since corrected the misinformation.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I have provided copies of Ann Abiden's registration renewal for CSX 2049 from 1964. They reflect the same data Coren discovered in the DMV files. And post #44 discusses the how's and why's of the odd data that was submitted for the 2049 footnote in the 4th edition of the Registry. We have since corrected the misinformation.

Perhaps I will ask for the latest version of the Cobra registries for Christmas to get clarificaiton on this.

It appears that document is Ann's 1964 registration application that was not sent it. However I am not sure that it has to be a 1964 registration renewal. Could it not be her initial 1964 registration application that she received after purchasing the wreck from a mechanics lien sale? Assuming she purchased the wreck after on or after April 1964, wouldn't she get a title and the application to register the car for 1964?

There would be no need to send in the 1964 registration application in the case that she purchased the car in 1963 as new (registration renewal application) nor purchased the wreck in 1964 from a mechanics lien sale (initial registration application). Why register a wreck that cannot be driven.

So unless that document indicates somewhere on it that it is a registration renewal for 1964, I don't think the document proves that Ann owned the car in 1963 or that she was the original owner.

That is why I asked if Lance Coren provided a copy of his "hand-search" document that indicated that Ann was the original owner. You certainly expect Michael to be able to provide a document that would indicate that Paul owned the car in 1963. It seems to me that the 1964 registration application only indicates that Ann owned the wreck in 1964 and does not prove that she owned it earlier than 1964.

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

All good possibilities. Yet the investigation performed back in 1980 by USC Cowboy's expert, Lance Coren, who was at the time an insurance recovery expert with access to the CA and other state's DMV - including records that were't computerized, via a "hand-search" - turned up only Ann Abiden and Lanse Haselrig as listed owners. Coren further stated in his letter (see my post, #55) that Abiden is shown as the original owner, having purchased 2049 in 1963 and sold it in 1967. Some of his dates and details are off, but he apparently located the same printed DMV records I have presented previously.

Lance Coren was not my expert, he was who my expert interviewed and investigated.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

Lance Coren was not my expert, he was who my expert interviewed and investigated.

And the person who concluded that his "many years investigation is finally came to a 100% proven factual conclusion" that Haselrig could not possibly have ever owned 2049, in as much as Coren had been to Haselrig's shop over the past 30 years and had never seen even one part from an original Cobra. Let's ignore the fact that the car was stolen over 35 years ago and was kept at another location. Clearly, that is 100% proof!

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by sunman

Paul started saying he owned the car last weekend of July. Nobody said otherwise. Bank shows note paid off shortly after. I believe Paul’s cash paid the note.
After accident #37 goes to SAI because no way it goes to Paul’s house to be a tragic reminder of what happened sitting in the driveway.
If Paul owned the car Curry the lawyer would have to file in probate for legal title.
He probably did. Then sold it in the lien auction to Ann.
If Paul owned CSX2049 and Curry didn’t use probate its still Paul’s car.
Or his heirs.
Can you check probate records? Everything Paul legally owned would be listed.
He was kinda young to have will.

More speculation follows:

Interesting as Michael said that his mom was unconsolable. Would she really want to see the car in her driveway or garage again to remind her of what happened? Michael said that Shelby never contacted his family about the lien. Michael was 19, so I might assume that during the day he might of had a job or went to college, so is it possible that Michael is not around the house at times that people from Shelby called Paul's mom or when she received letters from Shelby about the car? Maybe Michael's mom was incapable of talking on the phone about the car or discarded the letters about the car because she was so distraught of the idea of getting the car back that she could not respond. Is it possible that she could not even talk to her children about the people at Shelby who are bugging her about taking back the car?

Michael, you say that your mom moved back to Illinois after several months. Is it possible that she moved prior to April 1964? If so, that would have made it harder for the Shelby people to contact her.

In any case I would think that any investigation into the car by Shelby would be a day or two effort, certainly not needing to hold onto the car for several months. Perhaps the investigation was just taking some pictures and sending them to AC or Ford. Or maybe getting someone like Phil Remington to look over the wreck? I don't see why your family would expect Shelby to hold on to the wreck from November through April. It seems like if your family wanted the wreck back they should have been asking for it back less than a week after it got to the shop.

You also say that a Shelby employee who knew your family brought you what turned out to be not your car's remnants, so even if the Shelby people had somehow lost the contact information for your family when the wreck arrived and somehow also lost the invoices for recent competition improvements on the car with Paul's contact information, there is at least that employee who knew your family who could help with your family's contact information when the company controller keeps on complaining for months about the apparently abandoned wreck taking up shop space.

Any reasonable business that has a car come into their shop knows who the car belongs to and how to contact them. So I don't understand how Shelby American could fail to contact your mom about the car. More likely an unconsolable widow just never wanted to see the car again regardless of whether her children wanted the wreck back.

I guess another interesting point has to do with probate and settling of the estate. If the car was jointly owned by Paul and his widow, wouldn't the wreck's ownership have automatically gone to the widow as opposed needing to be settled as part of the estate? And in theory if the widow now owning the wreck, abandoned the wreck at the Shelby shop, could Shelby dispose of the wreck with a mechanics lien without it involving probate?