Drag race - Kirkham 65 side-oiler vs Ferrari 458 italia

[PatBuckley]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Thats a BIG "if". The biggest problem newbies have at the track is letting the excitement get to them, dumping the clutch and putting the hammer down to soon. You GOT to ease of the line, the race is the last 1/8th, not the first.

I gaurentee you Tommy WILL get the "hole shot", and being feeling all smug and good, just before Blitz comes by him and win's by two car lengths. Blitz, seeing Tommy get the hole shot, may panic and go to deep on the throttle, don't under estimate the mental part of a drag race. Patience, grass hopper.

Car lengths in drag racing is like a couple hundreth of second, by the way...

Ernie - I was always told by friends who race dragsters that the race is in the launch.....

[Excaliber]

That is correct Pat, but my experience with Cobras and the traction issues has been thats not the case. But it is indeed a valid point.

With Bill Boards and a TKO600, due to the lower gearing, I'm guessing he will not be able to go full throttle until 3rd gear. Somewhere close to 80 mph. Now with DOT approved road slicks, a bit sooner, certainly not before 2nd gear at least.

[TerrysSPF]

Tommy- Are you Dan's attorney? If so, I'll bet it's a full time job keeping that guy out of trouble! LOL.

Ernie- You're right. In a Cobra it's all about getting the power to hook up and that usually doesn't happen until 3rd. In a drag car it's all about the launch / reaction time because they're running slicks.

Dan- Make a small investment and go out and purchase some BFG Drag radials. You can get them in 15" and go with the 325's (although the 305's would be fine too). I've driven with both Billboards and drag radials and trust me, there is a big difference.
If you haven't been able to post anything better than 12's so far (and that's without a xmastree start), I highly doubt you're going to get into the low 11's without swapping out the tires and PRACTICE. Do you know what your rear is? You may want to think about launching in 2nd gear. If Tommy gets you off the line (which he will) don't panic and mash the pedal to the floor. Your car is much lighter and you have plenty of HP to get you caught up and pass by him by the time you reach the end of the 1/4 mile..........you just can't panic and spin the tires - and don't take your hand off the wheel to flip him off on your way by.

Both of you BE SAFE and have fun.

[KevinM]

Blitz,

Your motor probably makes around 750 HP on an engine dyno with open headers. The sidepipes on these things are actually very inefficient in spite of how loud they are.

There have been a number of members here who have dynoed their high horsepower cars with and without the sidepipe mufflers. The usual power loss from the mufflers is in the 100 to 150 HP range.

Kevin

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Blitz,

Your motor probably makes around 750 HP on an engine dyno with open headers. The sidepipes on these things are actually very inefficient in spite of how loud they are.

There have been a number of members here who have dynoed their high horsepower cars with and without the sidepipe mufflers. The usual power loss from the mufflers is in the 100 to 150 HP range.

Kevin

Let's not get carried away here. Does Dan's Kirkham have the new Cammer heads? How many 482's have dyno'ed at 750 HP? Zero, that I'm aware of. How many 482's have been dyno'ed over 700 HP? Zero, that I'm aware of.

Gary Sharapa has written that his Cobra with a Keith Craft 496 and a SOLID ROLLER cam made 523 rear wheel HP, 681 HP at the flywheel.

http://clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107770

What cam and heads does Dan have on his Kirkham? If the shop claims 550 rear wheel HP, then what the heck is in there?

[undy]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Let's not get carried away here. Does Dan's Kirkham have the new Cammer heads? How many 482's have dyno'ed at 750 HP? Zero, that I'm aware of. How many 482's have been dyno'ed over 700 HP? Zero, that I'm aware of.

Gary Sharapa has written that his Cobra with a Keith Craft 496 and a SOLID ROLLER cam made 523 rear wheel HP, 681 HP at the flywheel.

http://clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107770

What cam and heads does Dan have on his Kirkham? If the shop claims 550 rear wheel HP, then what the heck is in there?

Could be standard numbers in Dan's case, not SAE???

[Excaliber]

Yup, 96 horse power loss on my engine with the side pipes on. Fortunately, MY sidepipes can be quickly unbolted and I can run open headers for track day's. Most side pipes cannot be separated.

[KevinM]

As an aside, drag racing calculators assume that the car in question is capable of applying full power for the entire length of the strip. For a high powered Cobra on billboards, that's not even remotely possible. Ignore the calculators, they don't apply to cars that are severely traction limited.

Kevin

[Excaliber]

Take another look at Twin Turbo's U-Tube of his drag race in Medford, Oregon. NOTE that every run his opponent got the hole shot on him! That has also been my experience. And yet, in the end, Twin Tubo over took for the win. Running VERY LOW 10.03 and yet loosing the hole shot everytime? A classic Cobra conundrum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQtmrxaRVTg

[750hp]

Is the race decided by who gets the win light, or who posts the fastest time of the run? I might have missed this in the mountain of replies so far, but it seems to me that someone with little or no experience with staging and how the tree works could either:
Redlight (instant win to the opponent), or
Wait for the lights to turn green, THEN start to accelerate. This would give someone with more experience and a better reaction time a car length right from the start.

Remember, the time that shows on the timeslip is the actual time from when you start to accelerate through to the finish. The reaction time isn't included in this time.
I'd LOVE to hear the excuses if one guy runs a quicker time but gets to the end of the track second and loses the race because he was slower in the reaction time!

[RodKnock]

Ron,

Here's an old thread. Tough to figure out, but near as I can figure, the Kirkham weighs about 2,150 lbs, with an all aluminum engine and the CSX is about 150 +/- lbs more with the same type of engine.

Shelby vs a Kirkham (aluminum)

FWIW, my Kirkham weighed in at 2,128 lbs.

[RodKnock]

OK can the next piece of information leaked to everyone be what type of cam Dan's engine has?

Solid or hydraulic roller? If hydraulic, then the RPM's will be over by 6,200-ish. Solid roller on the other hand....

[Excaliber]

It's a KC motor, it's almost a sure bet he has a hydraulic roller. Which is great for maximum tire smoke at low rpm,,, if that's what you want.

It would also be unlikely a motor THAT big, 510 cid, would be a high rpm motor. I'm thinking, 6,000 max, 5,800 more reasonable.

If hydraulic, then the RPM's will be over by 6,200-ish

Wait, have you got that backwards? Hydraulic roller is typically lower rpm cam than a solid, and without the exotic lifters and such is generally limited to 5,800-6,000. A solid roller is a high rpm application, not likely with the MASSIVE stroke of a 510. But's it a KC motor, who knows what kind of magic he has wrought on that puppy!

Solid roller might be good for around 7,000. No way you would crank a 510 THAT high,,, would you? Man, that would be crazy!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

It's a KC motor, it's almost a sure bet he has a hydraulic roller. Which is great for maximum tire smoke at low rpm,,, if that's what you want.

It would also be unlikely a motor THAT big, 510 cid, would be a high rpm motor. I'm thinking, 6,000 max, 5,800 more reasonable.


Wait, have you got that backwards? Hydraulic roller is typically lower rpm cam than a solid, and without the exotic lifters and such is generally limited to 5,800-6,000. A solid roller is a high rpm application, not likely with the MASSIVE stroke of a 510. But's it a KC motor, who knows what kind of magic he has wrought on that puppy!

Solid roller might be good for around 7,000. No way you would crank a 510 THAT high,,, would you? Man, that would be crazy!

You're kidding right? If you search the FE Forum you'll see big cubes and solid rollers:

Here's a solid roller 511ci Shelby block engine by Barry R. making 787 HP at 7,000 RPM:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...dyno+pull+data

Jay Brown from the FE Forum:

"My 585" SOHC cheats this little recipe by using EFI, but it idles at around 750 RPM and runs on pump gas with 13:1 compression and 285 @ .050", with about .740" gross valve lift. Due to the differences in rocker ratio this duration at .050" is about equivalent to 273 @ .050" from a regular FE wedge cam. This engine peaks at 935 HP at 6600 RPM, but stays over 900 HP through 7500. So I think that your proposed engine would need more duration to peak around 7200 RPM in HP (although maybe not if you kept the cubes around 500). Head flow on my SOHC with the raised ports is around 450 @ .800" lift.

Jay Brown
1969 R Code Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner BB/NA with 511" FE(10.60s @ 129), Drag Week 2007 Runner Up BB/PA with 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA with 585" SOHC (9.50s @ 143)
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)"


Big cubes and high RPM's are more common than you think.

FYI, my Crower billet hydraulic roller cam can rev to 6,200+, but max HP comes at 5,800 RPM if I remember correctly.

[tommygold]

Wow, I haven't understood any of the last 10 or so posts, which is all to the good. Great site to transfer technical information. I do know that the poll keeps getting closer and closer, ironically as it looks like Dan's car has more and more capacity.

[tkb289]

Originally Posted by tommygold

Wow, I haven't understood any of the last 10 or so posts, which is all to the good. Great site to transfer technical information. I do know that the poll keeps getting closer and closer, ironically as it looks like Dan's car has more and more capacity.

Tom ...

You can see that there are a lot of passionate and knowledgeable Cobra guys around here and the race between you and Blitz has certainly elicited a lot of interest and speculation.

There are so many different factors involved that could tip the balance one way or another and engaging in 'bench racing' is a lot of fun.

Hope the contest is as good as this thread ... and that you and Dan have a safe race.

[RET_COP]

I ran my full floating, pink rod internally balanced, NA, BBC, 468ci, to 7600rpm 10.00 @135 3,400lb camaro every weekend for two seasons without any problems.

The Cobra easily wins one race with PROPER TRACTION and a patient driver with some track time, based on what the KC engine can produce. Right now the cobra driver does not even know if his cars rear tires will bite evenly. Who is tuning the rear suspension for him?? (there is no time factored in for it). While the tires are spinning ( because they will, unless he is very very patient) the rear very well could slide left or right.
I see alot of problems here with a high horsepower Cobra and NOTHING being checked prior to a full launch practice session. Could be dangerous also.

I don't know if BLITZ has the full picture of this if he is running this car on the edge like he should but probably wont be able too.

Good point about taking the WIN light vs ET. We may have the faster car lose the bet



Lou


Lou

[Mdman352]

Whoever lights the WIN light wins. Whoever lights the win light 3 times wins big time.

[Excaliber]

Nope, not kidding!! I didn't say you couldn't, but it aint normal by a long shot. Your taking a BIG risk slinging "heavy metal" 500 cid engines to 7,000 rpm. ANY such motor will be a seriously "race prepared", money is no object build.

You cite ONE (or two) examples of a BIG cube SOHC motor (not common) where the horse power peaked at 6,600 rpm. Still, pretty darn high for a big cube motor. There are no rpm's listed for the other, mostly DEDICATED drag race only examples of big cube motors.

Would YOU turn a 510 cid motor to 7,000 rpm? Not likely any of us mere mortals will ever have a motor that big capable of that kind of rpm. WHO would build such a motor, that would acutally survive? It's a short list, put Barry R and KC on it.

Would Blitz have such a motor?? Well hell yeah, Blitz might.

Tommy,
I frequent a few other technical forums, THIS forum is about as deep as any EVER get when it comes to technical stuff and serious gear head talk. You will see the best of the best when it comes to cars around these parts.

...a lot of these guys are way over my head!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Nope, not kidding!! I didn't say you couldn't, but it aint normal by a long shot. Your taking a BIG risk slinging "heavy metal" 500 cid engines to 7,000 rpm. ANY such motor will be a seriously "race prepared", money is no object build.

You cite ONE example of a BIG cube SOHC motor (not common) where the horse power peaked at 6,600 rpm. Still, pretty darn high for a big cube motor. There are no rpm's listed for the other, mostly DEDICATED drag race only examples of big cube motors.

Would YOU turn a 510 cid motor to 7,000 rpm? Not likely any of us mere mortals will ever have a motor that big capable of that kind of rpm. WHO would build such a motor, that would acutally survive? It's a short list, put Barry R and KC on it.

Would Blitz have such a motor?? Well hell yeah, Blitz might.

Tommy,
I frequent a few other technical forums, THIS forum is about as deep as any EVER get when it comes to technical stuff and serious gear head talk. You will see the best of the best when it comes to cars around these parts.

I cited two examples, but there are many others on the FE Forum.

Yes, I would build such an engine and I may one day. I have a Shelby block capable of 527ci reasonably easy. There are now a plethora of stroker engines and parts available today that weren't available just several years ago. But Chevys have been doing this for years and years. I had a 540ci engine in my old Vette over a decade ago that was shifted at 6,500+ RPM's a lot.

I'll sling Dan's 510 at 6,000-7,000 RPM, but I don't think he'll let me.