American vs. Cheap

[RockSnake]

Wow! I didn't anticipate such response to this post...just venting. But in response to some comments, Here are my responses:

- Yes, absolutely, unions are partly to blame. Not so much for their pay-scales, but for the absolutely stupid contract clauses that make them too much of a hassle to live with. ALL workers must realize that they must add more value to the company than they cost. The fellow that stopped the production line should have been subject to severe disciplinary action...but the unions prevent it.

- The nature of business is that sometimes you make a profit, and sometimes you take a loss. Accept it and make long-term plans. Trying to please the institutional investors by making stupid short-term decisions serves no purpose other than to weaken the company.

- MOST executives are Lemmings-with-bad-attitudes. Check recent publications, you'll find that the BEST anybody can hope-for with off-shoring, is a 20% savings. My employer is hoping for a 5-7% savings...at a cost of 6,000 jobs. Employees have proposed salary restructuring of 10-30% reduction...and the execs will not consider it. All because off-shoring is the current fad.

- I love my wife's name for economists (also stock-market analysts)..."psychic accountants". They don't know $hit. If they did, they'd be independently wealthy, and we'd never hear from them because they'd want to keep their secrets to themselves.

- Greed is NOT good, or admirable...that's why it's listed as one of the seven deadly sins.

- Between us and asia, there is no way to level the playing-field. China actively "conscripts" workers to the the work that creates the most hard cash-flow (remember they're still communist). India still actively uses indentured servitude. If you owe money to somebody, they can hold all your descendants accountable until the debt is paid-off...at usury rates.

- Yes, quality is improving in Mexico, and some other 'cheap labor' markets.

- I don't propose that it is all gloom-and-doom. However, nothing I have seen (here or elsewhere) suggests that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Common laborers cannot compete based on price (as stated by others, our cost-of-living is too high). People capable of getting an education can't find a field to study that offers any security. Somebody show me the light!

One final comment. For every job that leaves our shores, there are two immediate consequences to our treasury. (1) The collected taxes are reduced (2) The "social" expenses are increased (food-stamps, welfare, etc). It is reasonable to assume that taxes for remaining workers will be raised. Please explain how this is good for America.

[Rich]

Welcome to the light…er, Wal-Mart, sir.

Ten bucks an hour, lousy benefits that are a drain on the system, three good jobs lost in the community for every two crappy Wal-Mart jobs created, and the flood of loser businesses like pawn shops, check cashers, and tobacco stores that move in to the now vacant, now low-rent, retail spaces…and the attendant losers that patronize them. Add some paralyzing local traffic and third world suffering, and you’ve got the future.

Welcome to the future…uh, Wal-Mart, sir.

Rich

[misfit41]

My problem with unions is this,,some jobs are only worth so much,it's gotten to the point that common task any one can perform have become over priced,A guy putting a bolt in a hole can only make so much,but the unions have to justify there presence every contract by fighting the companys for more,more, more,sooner or later the guy dropping the screw in the hole on an explorer thinks he deserves 60k a year,why bother getting an education ,or setting goals.
I kid who washes cars may do great work,and may deserve a bit more money,but washing a car is only worth so much ,,Tim

[Turk]

It is often in the best interest of the company to take the jobs elsewhere where the cost of production is less. It is NOT always in the best interest of the employees.

Take a company making televison sets. They go to China because they can manufacture a US made $450.00 TV, for $400.00.

Take another company making tires in the same community who decides to move their manufacturing to China for cost cutting reasons.

By the time the less expensive TV comes to the stores back in the community the customer who was supposed to be the guy who worked at the tire plant is out of work and can't buy the TV at any price.

What good is that?
Chances are the laid off tire maker would rather have paid a little more for a TV and be able to buy it rather than save $50.00 and be unemployed.

You can't put every job up for bid, because that is good for your company. Eventually the community looses their purchasing power.

Unions may have been the root of all evil, at one time. Corporations get a lot more miles out of them than they should.
If American labor was so bad, and so expensive BMW, Mercedes, VW, Toyota wouldn't even think about having their cars built here. They DO!

The labor pool in China, is nothing like Japan. There can never be a leveling. They are reproducing at larger numbers on any given day than the number of jobs exported to their country. They can do this forever.

Unless you DON'T need consumers back home to buy your products who are gainfully employed, we must rethink exporting all jobs overseas just because it is cheaper.

We can't all work at Wal-Mart where we wouldn't be able to buy the tires and the TV sets we sell because we don't earn enough.

I call this the economics of destruction. It is measured only in snippets of time for the duration of one CEO's reign. It may be good for the botttom line during his 3 year reign, it is not good for the country or the company on the long run.

TURK

[ToyCollector]

The foreign automakers are coming here for production because their labor costs are higher in their own countries than here, and this is also a large market for their output, thus when factoring in sourcing of raw material costs and freight, customs, and logistics costs, they choose the U.S. for certain models.

On a side note, I find Walmart to be a morally bankrupt company that in several cases in the last year has tried (sometimes successfully) taking people's private property via eminent domain so they can build a new Walmart (do a google on Alabaster, AL for a recent example). When they build a new super Walmart, the old Walmart empty buildings they leave behind are an eyesore to the community they serve. Fortunately, the smarter communities are now one step ahead of them on this and reigning in the build it and run from it real estate model.

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/968577/posts

[RockSnake]

Eminent Domain is stealing...plain and simple. I could go-on for hours on this topic, due to Fort Worth city councils' love of the almighty dollar, and some of the backlash that came from some of these deals.

Some good, thought-provoking posts.

[bobl]

Reading this thread has provoked some emotion in my soul and I too need to vent a little. Please be so kind as to read the byline on the homepage of PREMIER MotorSports, LLC and the "why buy from us" page of Pegasus Engineering. You may get to them by visiting the landing page at www.premiercobras.com and clicking on the "replica cobra" link and the "reproduction cobra" link.

Every piece of steel in our cars is Earl Jorgensen - certified and made in the U.S. All of our composites are from Ashland Chemical - made in the good old US of A. And I will guarantee you that EVERY time we find a part that can be made in the U.S. we try to find someone needing the work and make sure they have a job. Or if we have a choice to buy American made or somewhere else....we buy at home. One dollar makes the rounds seven times in a local economy. AND WE'RE DOING OUR PART.

Fact is, we painted our 2004 show car Red, White and Blue and named it the "All American Cobra". Think that was a coincidence? NOT!! The red, white, and blue color theme may just remain our show Cobra colors. We're proud to put our car's heritage, quality, and value up against anyone - anytime - anyplace. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THIS REPLY AS AN "in your face" towards any other company or individual. It definitively is not. We all have the ability to seek our own destiny and to do what's in our own best interest. And we wish to all the very best that life may bring regardless of your endeavors.

That said, we believe, with all our heart and soul, that we're building the right product and at the right place to build it. It may cost more to build and our profitability may be less than others....be we're creating AMERICAN manufacturing jobs - good jobs. And we're building a product that takes second place to no one in form, fit, function, and quality.

Thank you for letting me get this off of my chest.

[REDSC400]

On a recent trip to Europe (Luxembourg, Belgium, Holland and France) for business, I became aware of two things financial. First thing was that the US dollar in relationship to the Euro was tradings at $1.20 US for $1 Euro. Not in the US Dollar's favor.

Second thing, and more important, was that all goods in Europe were very expensive when compared to goods in the USA. Upon closer inspection however, I became aware that most all goods in those countries were made in the European Union (EU). The existance of goods from China, Korea, Mexico, etc. was essentially non-existant on the shelves. So the Europeans seem to be only selling items that originate in the the EU. In fact the only US export items I saw were candy bars, cigarettes, DVDs, CDs, and films. It seems that the typical european shop keeper does not (for reasons unknown to me) sell imported goods IF they can get them from within the EU. There must be some real tuff tarriffs keeping imported goods out.

In the mean time, the typical European shopper must do with fewer items at a MUCH higher cost. Examples... sneakers for $120 Euros and up. Mens jeans... nothing under $70 Euros. You get the picture...

[Dan Stryffeler]

I've read quotes from industry analysist that claim more than half of the cost of a new car is to cover pensions and health care for auto worker retirees.

My point is only that there are a lot of 'legacy' costs involved in many of our heavy industries which newer companies don't carry. Add to the mix an environment in the U.S. where everyone and their brother feels entiltled to some $$$ instead of working for it, and those 'new' manufacturers will go where the government views them as a partner - not an adversary.

Actually, that last statement is a lie... there are alot of good people left here who have a strong work ethic and pride in what they do, I'm very fortunate to be able to say that about 50 of'em work for me.

- Dan

[Turk]

Paying more for an item is not all that bad IF the additonal costs are traceble to the cost of labor alone that would leave one more person employed so he too can spend and even afford to buy the product he is making.

When the cheap labor steals jobs away, not just for the survival of the company but for the ADDITIONAL profitablity of the company, and the net result is cheaper product but an unemployed consumer, how's that good for anyone but those who manage to keep their population employed?

We must remember we worked hard and long and may have a tough time to be willing to compete with those who are glad to have a bowl of rice for their hard day's work.


TURK
TURK

[snake oil]

Reply to misfit,

If it wasn't for those freakin "illlegal MEXICANS" who would be doing all those oh so great flippin jobs?
Like landscaping? or bus boy ? or cleaning horse $hit at the race track?
Changing the oil at Jiffy lube, sanding and blocking these "Oh so great" cars of ours so we can have great paint jobs?

You know, all those great American jobs that our children aspire to do? and look forward to? Mc Donalds BurgerKing and so on.

How about all the americans from different racial back groungds that want to sit home and wait for a check?
And then sit around and gripe about how bad things are?

Don't get me wrong I don't say all Mexicans are good people
but, Most of the ones I know are hard working people.

VIVA LA RAZA

Don't get me wrong guys I'm not anti- American or neither do I think that all our jobs should leave our borders.
I just don't think it all can be blamed on "ILLEGAL MEXICANS ".
Some one once said ;
"Remember the pen is mightier than the sword".
So do me a favor, watch where you point that thing!

[Ron61]

Snake Oil,

Well stated. In Calif. it is our Govt. more than any illegal aliens of any type that has ran the jobs out of this state. Silicon Valley is now like a ghost town. And try to talk to an AOL tech. I think they have their whole tech unit in Mexico now. That is why they want you to use the live help and type your questions in. I still try to buy Americian made stuff as much as I can, but the quality and pride of workmanship seems to no longer exist in this country in most cases. That can't be blamed on unions or anything else but greed and lack of pride in one's work. The only way now for a person in this state to start a business and make a small fortune is to start with a HUGE fortune. The insurances and taxes wipe everything out.

Ron

[KobraKarl]

Snake oil.

You seem to easily knock american pride and workmanship...most of what you are seeing is the result of american companies trying desparately to compete with cheap foriegn goods.......we cant live on $5.00 a day.......something has to give.


I grew up poor,...I did plenty of those jobs you think are below the dignity of your kids or the white man or ........

........you may think that cheap lawn care is a great deal now....maybe illegal alien labor dosnt affect your job......you think.....
...but my company has to compete with them..... here in my country...and they are taking good jobs from hard working Americans so someone with a job like yours can save a few bucks.


KK

[foothills gary]

I have no problem making a list of people that I deal with frequently(even daily) that have grasped the concept of product and service excellence.I have dealt with many for years and have watched them get continually better at what they do.I think each person that frequents this site could do the same if you made your own lists.We will survive and thrive economically,I believe,because we have inherited an ethos that includes hard work,deferral of immediate gratification for long term betterment,and rugged individualism-values I believe most Americans(especially those in small businesses,the backbone of American business)espouse.Many are as close as the advertisers at this site.Don't get discouraged-we are going to win because of who we are as Americans.

[snake oil]

Kobra Karl, I am not Knocking any american pride or workmanship.
You are mis- understanding what I said.
And I definitely agree you can not live on $5 a day.

I like you my freind grew up in the ghetto poor as dirt.
And i did NOT STATE that any of those jobs are below the dignity of anyone.

But face it Who will be cleaning uor rooms at Spring Fling?
Her name more than likely will be Hipanic.
I did not put anyone down for anythig.
I just don't think that you can blame things on
ONE PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
THAT IS MY POINT !
And as far as Knocking anything or anybody, I am not.

[ToyCollector]

Foothills Gary hit the nail on the head. Some jobs are just not meant to be here anymore ECONOMICALLY and you need to ask yourself if you add value in what you do. Frankly as an example, I hope the legacy air carriers just die or quickly learn more frequent flights on smaller planes may be a better biz model, and show the airline unions what can really happen. Hopefully we will have more Southwests, Frontiers, Airtrans to backfill as they slowly desolve. A better price/performance product people want. I HATE unions. It is usually a bunch of arrogant and lazy workers trying to hold a business that is likely run by lousy management hostage. They both get what's coming to them. Some of what the Mexicans are doing is what I did as a teenager. Today's kids are too lazy to even do that. We make our own destiny collectively, and most importantly individually.

[snake oil]

There are cycles that take place in every society.

When I was a young squirt,
I used to work for a Jewish guy in a clothing store.
Nice man very fair.
But I noticed one thing, none of his kids ever worked
in the store they thought that that was beneath them.
Se la vie.
They went to school studied to become something different.

This left a void.

That was very quickly y filled by eager Korean business men
Starting there own business.
Those Gym shoe stores and athletic wear that were in every major city.
Now will their children follow in dad's footsteps?
Probably not. That just they way it goes.

I don't have any magic answer to the economic question.
But I sure wish I did.

[KobraKarl]

Snakeoil,

The pride and workmanship comment was in responce to ron61.....

I did not think you were blaming a race of people for our problems ....maybe I missed something.

You are probably right , the lady tending your hotel room will be illegally in this country , working hard..? probably...should it be some people who might just as easily be on welfare? ...I think so. I would rather pay an extra $5,00 for my room and have it tended by one of my countrymen (women).

TC,..

Who are these union workers you hate?.....American men and women who make a good wage?......remember ,they spend it in your store....

I am no big fan of the unions.....there is no doubt that some unions have become a haven for slackers and people who couldnt cut it in a free market........but they are also easily made to look the fool when they are striking for more money and benefits than the average guy gets......But , the average guy would be working for pesos if the unions didnt set the bar to begin with......They are not what is wrong with this country......unless your vision of America is mass unemployment and hundreds of men scrabbling over any job at any price just to survive..........sorta like Mexico..


KK


KK

[TerrysSPF]

Snake oil: Does the word ILLEGAL mean anything to anyone (including our government!) anymore!? I think some of those jobs you spoke of, would be getting gobbled up by some of our own American citizens right about now, with this slow economy. These would be higher paying jobs, if "someone" wasn't offering to do it at half the pay!
I work in the trades, and have seen A LOT of jobs taken over by Mexicans (mostly illegals). In fact, a lot of my competitors have switched to employing illegals and are able to offer their services at a lower rate (but also a lower quality product.......although this is unknown to the consumer). They pay their "employees" under the table (cash), and the money gets shipped back to Mexico...... that is unless they were able to sneak their "family" here with them. Then, their family comes here to collect welfare / food stamps from the American taxpayer, and then they have a baby (also paid for by Americans......and we wonder why our insurance and drugs are so high) and the child becomes an automatic citizen as well as the mother......they both get Soc Sec numbers, keep living on the dole (which they can do because the father is working for cash and not claiming an income or paying taxes), and before long, they bring up some more "family" and the process starts all over again.
Now, our fine state of Illinois, is pulling a "Kalifornia" and trying to pass a law in which ILLEGAL's can obtain a drivers license! They say it's "so they can keep better records and keep an eye on them"......they also think that all of these ILLEGALS will all of a sudden get car insurance once they get their drivers license, thus making our road more safe. WHO are they trying to kid????? First of all, if the state wants to be able to "keep better records on Illegals" ...........how about, once they apply for a drivers license, ROUND THEM UP at that time, and ship them out of here.......after all, THEY ARE I L L E G A L !!!! Secondly, does the state of Illinois (or California) really think that these people are just waiting to get a drivers license so they can then start paying for insurance???
......I've got swamp land for sale if any of my Congressmen are interested!!

BTW Snake oil: I'm interested in a WCCC T-shirt.......as long as it wasn't made by an illegal!!

Sorry, just venting........

[aumoore]

Guys I hated World history in College but now I can see why it is important. America is starting to resemble Ancient Rome. They were the richest Empire and the most advanced. Soon all of Rome was fat dumb and happy. Most of their Armies were hired hands from other countries. Where is this great empire now???


History can and will repete itself if we do not open our eyes and bust our ass to help ourselves.

Real Americans Buy American its our children's and Grandchildren's future.