American vs. Cheap

[Turk]

Globalization, we were told. It was supposed to have been good for us.

Sure, if you are Chinese, or Japanese.

I wasn't sure about the numbers but when our own money comes back to US and is used to buy farms, baseball teams, and some very American institutions and landmarks it just not may be in our best interest.

Their labor is plentiful, and they will soon turn that labor into cash and goods and trade deficits and disposable income for them and more deficit, lowered standard of life for us.

If anyone out there thinks we are trading on a even trading field, they are mistaken.
Token Harley Davidsons shipped into Japan or China does not really go far to balance the trade deficit.

Few years ago, Japan even denied US rice exports into their country under some argument that It was not in the traditional interest of Japan to allow something like rice to be brought in because it offended their traditions.

I wish we could have said the same about our traditional worship of cars. That would have stopped them at the ports.

I have resigned to having to do business globally, because the companies themselves are all over the national boundaries. However we need to be able to sell everywhere we are buying from. Is that too much to ask?

[SPEEDEAMON]

Turk,

Its not the Harley Davidsons that have corrupted the Japanese. Its the McDonalds, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Am PM markets, Starbucks, Dunkin' Donuts and Pizza Hut that have radically changed the diet of the country into thinking more like Americans. You only have to look how much they lost investing in Real Estate here in the '70s and '80s. The repurcussion is still going on with their now over 10 year long recession. China will be the next empire and it is just a matter of time. Not only are they hard working, they study hard and are smarter.

[James Baldwin]

Originally posted by scottj


...Then you stuff it full of Chinese cranks, rods etc. You won’t find Eagle, Scat, Cat, Manley, or any other foreign junk in mine.

I have watched this thread for a few days without saying anything but would like to clear up some facts to help shed light on why many of you feel foreign made products are crap.

Just for the record, I will state my allegiance… I am part of a product development and sourcing company. And yes, I source many items from Asia, as well as Europe, US, Mexico and Canada. I work for many Fortune 100 companies and they come to us for products for which they want to find alternative sources. Why? Yes, often price, but most of the time – to find additional resources and engineering that they cannot get elsewhere.

Different countries have stereotypes for different reasons… but it depends on whom you ask. Many people stereotype China as “poor quality products” and “child labor in every factory”. Fair enough based on the press you hear. But the reality is that all morally responsible companies (all every company that I deal with) mandate that their factories pass certain requirements (both labor and quality control). I have been to China factories that put US factories to shame (and vise versa). China is les expensive due to labor, Taiwan is more expensive typically because they utilize better engineering and tollerances, etc...

I am not here to defend any country or company that goes overseas to purchase products, but I do want to make sure you all have the facts on one thing.

Product quality is not (ultimately) the responsibility of the producing factory (regardless of country it is produced in). In the product development process, every product must have sound design and material requirements and, most importantly, concise quality control guidelines. THIS is the responsibility of the retailer or sourcing company. If the product is of poor quality, it is most often due to:
1. The retailer did not test the product before it was sent to market
2. To save money, the retailer cut corners and used lesser-quality materials to meet a price point (THIS IS THE MOST COMMON)

That said, every product has a defect ratio, regardless where it is produced. To say a “country” produces bad products is just not true. Focus on the company selling the product.

Scott, this is not pointed at you so please don’t take offense to this post. It is a very common misperception that most people believe. I just wanted to help explain that the responsibility is on the company that is asking for the product to be produced more than the company that is actually manufacturing. If Eagle, Scat, etc… are making crap products (I do not know if they are or not), it is their fault for specifying the materials and poor quality control processes to let these products get into the market.

You have heard the phrase “crap in – crap out”. That applies here. No respectful company would launch a product that they have not first fully tested and approved before it is sent out to the consumer.

If my Shelby comes in from CAV any less quality than the Las Vegas Shelby, I do not blame the South African factory…. I blame Shelby for allowing me to receive it - and will return it to them. The same goes for my Ford Truck (with components made in Taiwan, Korea, Japan, China, Mexico and the US).

And yes, there are many factories that I would not set foot in. But those factories are in every country. I even export items into Germany, Korea and the UK (from the US) because they cannot fulfill to the quality and price standard in their own country.


Sorry for the lengthy post

[Excaliber]

Well I can say this about "quality" at Walmart, and I understand they buy a LOT of products from China.

I shop CAREFULLY for Walmart goods, MANY of which are NOT good quality. I want a decent price but I am also willing to pay a little more for a quality product.

Not all Walmart stuff is "junk", but you DO have to shop with some common sense!

Ernie

[Gordon Claunch]

Wal-Mart is EVIL!!! I have read several articles lately about them, I just can't go there.

[misfit41]

TURK,,
Your on the money my friend,no one feels the true state of the economy like a car guy,,
James,I didnt realize any one said over seas products were junk or inferior,what were addressing are the governing policies,immigrant influx,and nafta.along with walmart breaking small town,Mom and Pop america.and the willing ness of un knowing americans to let it take place,most people buy a hamburger at mcdonalds thinking it is american beef,many times it isnt,as long as we have cows in the usa,,that sucks,,
Lets all go buy some reas estate and start a business in japan,,see how far we can get,,dammit,,I am po'ed again Turk is right,we're the greatest,most prosperious nation in the world,the only way to raise the rest,is lower us,little by little,,Tim

[scottj]

James,

No offense taken. It was my mistake to refer to the quality of the imports in a post where quality had no relevancy.

My argument is this; it is not in the best interests of our nation to have an ever-increasing trade deficit while the “net worth” of the country is transferred abroad, regardless of the quality of the consumables.

US manufacturing lost another 24,000 jobs in October. Manufacturing is now only 14% of the GDP and employs only 5% of the population. 90% of the US population is more concerned about inexpensive products than they are US manufacturing and the trade deficit. The proof of that is Walmart is projecting sales of 14 billion dollars in Chinese imports in ’04.

[James Baldwin]

Originally posted by scottj


....90% of the US population is more concerned about inexpensive products than they are US manufacturing and the trade deficit.

You are exactly right!

Unfortunately, it will take an increase in import taxes to make an even playing field for domestic manufacturers

As for services, IT jobs, that will only get worse in the coming years.... Take it from an ex-ecom guy.

One bright spot is Dell... I heard a rumor - They outsourced the Tech Support Call Center to India and received so many complaints that they are bringing it back to the US (customers cannot understand the accents)

[Nuke427]

1. Most teachers don't make enough. My wife with her masters degree - $33,000 10 years tenure.

2. Union workers make less than their bosses so they can't be overpaid.

3. I'll buy a Honda over a GM product anytime. More American content.

4. If we don't let countries import, how will we export our trash to China?

5. No one here will solve anything with the economy and foriegn products will always be available for you to purchase.

[misfit41]

I am not sure about more usa parts in a honda,,I dont even know how to research that,but the headache I have with imports being made here,other than the obvious workbase it creates,the profits go back home,,
I will agree to being a hippocrite on one thing,when I buy a car,I normally buy 1 to 3 year old used,I buy import most of the time.there just better.,my list is 1 toyota,2,honda,3 tie with nissan,mazda,4 ,mitsubishi,Oh,,and yes,,Korean cars are junk plain and simple, Koreans wont buy any thing made in korea,any one know that ?
Tim

[Nuke427]

Korean is junk. Ford owns Mazda and others. I own 2 Fords and a Honda. Honda doesn't get #1 on the customer satisfaction for nothing. GM isn't normally at the bottom for nothing either, excluding Buick and Cadillac. My Honda Pilot was built here in the U.S. Some cash goes back to Japan, Oh Well, don't ever buy a Dodge, all the damn Germans will get your money! Speaking of which, the German auto workers are the highest paid in the world. Maybe that's why they make such a good car. Wonder if they're union? Probably.

[Steve R]

I keep hearing references to the lower standard of living in this country. I just don't see it. What is the definition of "standard of
living" being used here?
Steve

[Turk]

Germans make such a fine car?
Myth lives on.

MB....N0 32 out of possible 33 spots in customer satisfaction right behind VW.

I hope you folks are not buying your Toyotas Hondas all based on information you have that is a few years old.

I also hope that the content information on GM versus Honda is more accurate than the Germans Making Great cars.

MB,
VW
Audi
got beat by Daewoo,Peugeot, Renault,Skoda,Kia,Hyundai and even the lowly Daihatsu.

So much for the Kroean junk, huh?

They all seem to have placed ahead of the much acclaimed MB.

The only one worthy of mention is BMW, which is ranked behind Suzuki, Mitsubishi,and Subaru.

Some of the automotive urban legends never die. I hate to see new ones start up.

I am trying to sell Chevys and Cadillac here so I can afford to buy something nice.Cut me a little slack!


TURK

[Steve R]

Turk,
Are you thinking of buying another car made by Polish workers?
Steve

[Turk]

Steve,
Standard of living as contrasted to other countries.

The contrast to what is elsewhere is nowehere as vivid as it was 25-35 years ago. 25 to 35 years ago many countries didnt even have TV broadcast while we were watching Color TV.

It is still a great place to live, but not as pronounced as it was when other nations were just struggling to get on their feet. They sure were not looking at us as a market to sell, as much as a market to buy from.
We just swapped spots it seems.

Standard of living as in someone who lost their job due to manufacturing relocation to another country.

Standard of living as in, schools that is more violent, less academic, more diverse.
My God, if you are not aware of the constant degradation of what once was an American exclusive, you are not being very critical.

Would I go live elsewhere? hell no. It is still a great country. Except 35 years ago, there wouldn;t have been a debate on the subject. Today there is.

TURK

[Steve R]

Question:
Why are people not talking about all the environmental regulations and social engineering in this country that is chasing the manufacturing jobs away from the U.S.?
Steve

[Nuke427]

Not buying my Honda's on old news. Buying them on past experience. Honda accord, traded it at 140,000 miles, only changed the oil, air filter and tires, never did brakes or anything else. Honda Passport (Isuzu Rodeo) 125,000 miles same exact story, no brake work or anything else. Now own a 2003 Honda Pilot, don't expect to do anything to it for 5 years except oil and oil filter and tires. Never heard of a GM product able to do that. The report I read had Kia dead last in satifaction. Don't know where you get you info. Kia sucks. Ford's have that good Mazda influence, they should last awhile.

[ToyCollector]

Nuke, I liked your bulletized post on the last page. I do believe that last time I bought a new car which was sometime ago, the window sticker or some similar sticker showed percent American content on it. I have seen it on BMWs, MBs, Fords. And I have seen so called "imports" with higher content percentages than some American makes.

[Steve R]

Turk,
You wrote:

"Standard of living as in someone who lost their job due to manufacturing relocation to another country"

That is not a pleasant experience for sure. But I am a firm believer that people can re-invent themselves and adapt. They are not the helpless victims the left constantly makes them out to be. The buggy whip analogy comes to mind.
you wrote:

"Standard of living as in, schools that is more violent, less academic, more diverse.
My God, if you are not aware of the constant degradation of what once was an American exclusive, you are not being very
critical."

How is violence in schools and lower grades, caused by me buying a Chinese Schwinn?
Steve

[Turk]

I was only answering the question of what makes me think "the standard of Living is not what it used to be.

If you are in your 50s or 60s and were planning on retirement in a few more years and lost your job in a town where many others suffered the same end due to a plant closing, you will have a rough time not only reinventing yourself in another field, but also selling your home and moving elsewhere.

Steel belt is full of more examples than I can list.

Similar things are happening to younger generation right here in the Silicon Belt. They have big BMW payments and large mortgages, and no jobs.

As for the Schwinn, try riding it in the wrong part of town after sunset and see if my predictions of violence etc comes true or not.
Not because it is Chinese made, it is because you are on a bike all alone in the dark.

That was not a concern 35 years ago when I rode my bike. That to me is a definete drop in the quality of standards in our lives.

TURK