American vs. Cheap

[CSX 4039]

Duane- I see it too, although you didn't ask me. Basically, for the businesses I know, anyone who is the person you really want to hire, is already overpaid doing something else, because there is a shortage of skilled people; not people in general. The only way to keeps costs in line is to get foreigners to do the work, either by outsourcing the job to India, or China, or by hiring immigrants to USA. Americans with limited skills won't work for a wage that is commensurate with their skills, nor logical for a small business (where the CEO doesn't fly in his personal Gulfstream 5). Foreigners are not inebriated by consumerism, as are Americans (workers AND CEO's)

[aumoore]

Originally posted by CSX 4039


Duane- I see it too, although you didn't ask me. Basically, for the businesses I know, anyone who is the person you really want to hire, is already overpaid doing something else, because there is a shortage of skilled people; not people in general. The only way to keeps costs in line is to get foreigners to do the work, either by outsourcing the job to India, or China, or by hiring immigrants to USA. Americans with limited skills won't work for a wage that is commensurate with their skills, nor logical for a small business (where the CEO doesn't fly in his personal Gulfstream 5). Foreigners are not inebriated by consumerism, as are Americans (workers AND CEO's)

CSX4039
You say that people you want to hire are already "overpaid doing something else". They may be being paid more than you are willing to pay but that does not make them overpaid for what they are currently doing. If you run a McDonalds then it is ok to hire teenagers at minimum wage to flip burgers but don't expect a person living on his own to want to work for minimum wage. We all have a tendency to think that "at your age I only made $1.80 per hour so you should be glad to work for $5.25". If you put yourself in their shoes would you work for what you are offering if you had responsibilities? My guess is no.

If we try to keep as much of the american money here then it will stay in circulation here and maybe soem will come back to you in the form of business. GatorAC runs a heating and AC business and I doubt he has many customers in China but he may have Chineese(SP?) customers in Tampa.

CSX I do agree that there are people who expect top pay with no skills but don't think someone else is overpaid if their current employer pays them more than you are willing to. If they were overpaid then they would be replaced right? Just like those overpaid engineers, draftsmen, accountants etc that are having their jobs shipped to China just like the textile, iron, toy etc worker's jobs are.

If we ship all the manufacturing jobs overseas then where are all the unskilled young workers going to get started and build a career. Remember not everyone is or wants to start his own business.


I will park my soapbox for now.

[Turk]

How much skill is needed to answer the damn phones when you need some tech support on some appliance you just purchased?
The person on the other end is just reading a step-by-step trouble shooting manual, before he solicits the aid of a supervisor.
Those job are now overseas too.

For everyone of those jobs going overseas, there is someone here paying the price. Someone who speaks English!!

This is all good for WHOM? US?
I don't think soooo!

TURK
You can call me at 08-98-11-342-567-55678.

You must first dial 111.

[Jim Wintz]

I am in the auto industry, we provide stampings to the major car manufactures. We compete daily with companies all over the world. I would put our company up against any, but there has to be a chance for fair global competition. We loose stampings to China because our customers are buying a complete stamping from China including freight to the U.S. cheaper then we can even by the raw material here in the states to make the part. Not sure how they are doing this, sometimes their goverment subsidize the companies to get them the buisness and get their country rolling as well as helping pay for the utilities used ect.. ect... This gets into following all of the rules of the free trade agreement which we know they are not being followed, but that is up to our goverment to enforce to level the playing field. The statement is coorect that we (America) must find a way to deal with this situation because it is not going away. First it was Mexico, now China, if not China there will be another 3rd world country trying to evolve so we need to figure out how to compete and deal with it as well as level the playing field so it is fair. I think America can compete and win against anyone. Our company and buisness has dractically changed since the 201 steel tariff our goverment implemented a couple of years ago and now the China threat. We need to figure out how to keep the work and manufacturing here in the U.S. because once it leaves there is slim to no chance of it ever coming back.

Sometimes we create our own problems, we want to have the highest paying jobs but we want to buy the least expensive product. That doesn't work. The product cost more if you have an associate making it that gets paid $20.00 an hour as opposed to $1.00 a day. You go to Wal-Mart to buy a 19" color TV, the one made in China or Japan is $89.00 the one (if we make any here anymore) in America cost $150.00 which one are you going to buy?

To be able to be made in America we need to buy American made. Sorry to go on but this is a subject we deal with daily. And I don't want to see this nation get turned into a nation of burger flippers.

Jim

[Turk]

We all understand economics enough to be dangerous. We all understand free trade etc.

What we don't seem to understand is if all items that can be manufactured elsewhere were manufactured there (wherever that is) and every company who used to manufacture those goods here in the US was to layoff their work force, WHO is GOING to buy those cheaper goods when they come in to the country?

Wat do you DO with the now UNEMPLOYED Americans?

I am NOT a protectionist by any means, but I do worry about the exporting of American Labor overseas to a country that has Billions and Billions of hard working population who will be glad to assemble, manufacture whatever we need.

If every company that can pack up and leave did, what in the hell do we do with our people?

It is beyond competition. They have the need, the population, work conditions, the wages and the will to do it for less INDEFINETELY......
What do you do with the American workers when every job is performed elsewhere?

Is a foreign worker working for $3.00 an hour overseas better for American Economy, as compared to an American worker making $13.00 and paying taxes and spending here.

We know what benefits a company gets by reducing the cost of their manufacturing, but what benefits does America get by taking tax payers and laying them off. You have just increaded their dependency on the social services, public education, health services. You have simultenously decreased their contribution to the treasury. They don't pay taxes if they don't have jobs. They can't buy things if they don't have jobs.

Am I the only one who flunked economics in here?

The burden shifts to those who can NOT take their businesses elsewhere and have to employ local labor. So we tax the $hit out of those unfortunate few who stayed working here in the States.

We can't all work for the service industries. They already have foreign workers to pick the fruits and vegetables, and plenty to make up the beds in hotels..

Can't we all learn from California what happens when you export your jobs out of the reach of those who want to live and work here?

TURK

[CSX 4039]

Originally posted by aumoore


CSX4039
You say that people you want to hire are already "overpaid doing something else". They may be being paid more than you are willing to pay but that does not make them overpaid for what they are currently doing. If you run a McDonalds then it is ok to hire teenagers at minimum wage to flip burgers but don't expect a person living on his own to want to work for minimum wage. We all have a tendency to think that "at your age I only made $1.80 per hour so you should be glad to work for $5.25". If you put yourself in their shoes would you work for what you are offering if you had responsibilities? My guess is no.

If we try to keep as much of the american money here then it will stay in circulation here and maybe soem will come back to you in the form of business. GatorAC runs a heating and AC business and I doubt he has many customers in China but he may have Chineese(SP?) customers in Tampa.

CSX I do agree that there are people who expect top pay with no skills but don't think someone else is overpaid if their current employer pays them more than you are willing to. If they were overpaid then they would be replaced right? Just like those overpaid engineers, draftsmen, accountants etc that are having their jobs shipped to China just like the textile, iron, toy etc worker's jobs are.

If we ship all the manufacturing jobs overseas then where are all the unskilled young workers going to get started and build a career. Remember not everyone is or wants to start his own business.


I will park my soapbox for now.

You are right. What I meant to say is, that people I would like to hire are already making more money than I can afford to pay them, and the people who can't do the job, it doesn't matter if you pay them 50 cents an hour or $50/hour, they still can't do the job. In other words, I can't get good help, because I can't afford the people I need. Since I am in (a now sadly 100% regulated industry) medical care I can not raise my prices to be able to afford the kind of people who do not make outragious mistakes. The next industry to fall will be pharmaceuticals. Once the government/insurance people bury their teeth in so deep they don't feel like coming to work anymore, R&D will cease, and when you are lying on the ER gurney, clutching your chest, having the Big One, the liquid Drano that you need won't be there, because the researchers quit trying.
As for your comments, you are right.

[Rich]

"We loose stampings to China because our customers are buying a complete stamping from China including freight to the U.S. cheaper then we can even by the raw material here in the states to make the part. Not sure how they are doing this, sometimes their goverment subsidize the companies to get them the buisness and get their country rolling as well as helping pay for the utilities used ect.. ect..."

This could also be a case of your customer subsidizing the Chinese companies/government in order to get their foot in the door. You'd be surprised how much inferior product a company is willing to put up with in order to open up a new market, and in the future, China will be the BIGGEST new market ever.

[CSX 4039]

Originally posted by Turk


We all understand economics enough to be dangerous. We all understand free trade etc.

What we don't seem to understand is if all items that can be manufactured elsewhere were manufactured there (wherever that is) and every company who used to manufacture those goods here in the US was to layoff their work force, WHO is GOING to buy those cheaper goods when they come in to the country?

Wat do you DO with the now UNEMPLOYED Americans?

I am NOT a protectionist by any means, but I do worry about the exporting of American Labor overseas to a country that has Billions and Billions of hard working population who will be glad to assemble, manufacture whatever we need.

If every company that can pack up and leave did, what in the hell do we do with our people?

It is beyond competition. They have the need, the population, work conditions, the wages and the will to do it for less INDEFINETELY......
What do you do with the American workers when every job is performed elsewhere?

Is a foreign worker working for $3.00 an hour overseas better for American Economy, as compared to an American worker making $13.00 and paying taxes and spending here.

We know what benefits a company gets by reducing the cost of their manufacturing, but what benefits does America get by taking tax payers and laying them off. You have just increaded their dependency on the social services, public education, health services. You have simultenously decreased their contribution to the treasury. They don't pay taxes if they don't have jobs. They can't buy things if they don't have jobs.

Am I the only one who flunked economics in here?

The burden shifts to those who can NOT take their businesses elsewhere and have to employ local labor. So we tax the $hit out of those unfortunate few who stayed working here in the States.

We can't all work for the service industries. They already have foreign workers to pick the fruits and vegetables, and plenty to make up the beds in hotels..

Can't we all learn from California what happens when you export your jobs out of the reach of those who want to live and work here?

TURK

TURK

TURK- your point is well taken, and I think most people agree. Unfortunately, America and Americans have created this problem for themselves. We used to be able to do things that no other country on earth could do, thereby justifying a higher standard of living. But, beginning with Japan in the 1960's, other countries learned how to do better work for much less money. The baby boomers squandered their head start by lazy assed consumerism. Now, they are broke and unemployable. A truly free market would allow people to go for the best deal, and the best deal is no longer in America. Americans feel entitled. The are not hungry and motivated. Many are fat and lazy and increasingly stupid. They do not deserve to win solely because they are American. Unfortunately, the fewer hard working Americans will suffer along with the rest, because when the work moves overseas, the good ones get layed off, too. Hard to accept, but, show me where the Simpson's generation deserves to be rich. "I am NOT illiterate- my Mama was married for 3 day 'fo I was bone".

[aumoore]

For what it's worth:

I hear that even our close neighbor Mexico is feeling the pinch of corporate greed by loosing those high paying $5per day manufacturing jobs to China where they make $5/week and work in dangerous environmentally unfriendly conditions.

Jim
You comment about the $89 foreign built TV vs the $150 American made one brings up one big problem. We have no choice on many goods. I for one would rather pay a little more for an American made product vs a Foreign built product. You might be suprised how small the differance can be between American made and Foreign made.

For example I know a guy who used to work for a large department chain as a clothing purchaser. They could but American made Levi's for about $2 per pair more than the same product made in China and that was about 4 years ago. If they would put two racks there and give me the choice then I would pay a couple of bucks to keep the money here in the states.

Corporations and individuals make too many decisions based on the bottom line vs the big picture.

I work in the steel industry and we are seeing record price increases in the neighborhood of 16 to 100% over the past few months depending on the product. A large part of the problem is China's thirst for steel with their booming economy that we and Wallyworld helped finance.

The dollar is weakening and if the trend continues the cost of foreign goods will rise and make our products come down in price overseas. Who knows mayby one day our grandchildren will be making toys for Chineese children.