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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2003, 10:24 PM
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Not many hispanics here in Hawaii.

The fillipinos run the show around here! Garden, lawn maintanence, tree trimming, virtually 100% (and there fast, cheap and GOOD at it). Hotel workers? Fillipino. Don't know how the islands could function without them!

Ernnie
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Old 12-09-2003, 10:30 PM
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Jeez, I love this thread (hope no one deletes it)!

Couple of points to ponder (I take no sides in this, I just want you to consider the data).

First, I've been on many plant tours in Mexico and walked in the park in Mexico city on Sunday and I think most of you would be shocked at what I saw. What I saw were mother mary's in many of the factories and the park *full* of families on Sunday trying to be, well, families. Human beings are fundamentally 99.999% identical from a DNA perspective. The only thing that makes us different in most cases it an accident of birth. You simply cannot travel abroad, see how the rest of the planet lives & works and hate them for what they are trying to do! We are by far the richest country in the world and as I said in my post way back on the first page, we are going to feel the rest of these people trying to live a better life.

Second, I think you are all discounting the effeciency of the US. By far, we are the freeest country in the world in which Adam Smith's invisible hand can work its magic. As farming was in decline, the economy was very busy for decades reinventing itself as a manufacturing economy. Long before manufacturing was in decline the services industries were growing up along with tech. As individuals we just can't see all the micro moves that are happening but I would NEVER bet against the US long-term, never.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2003, 10:41 PM
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Ed , nice thought ,

I, in no way want any of my comments to be understood as anything but economics or law.....my mom raised me better than that.

KK

I dont blame others for wanting what we have....but my loyalties are with my countrymen

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Old 12-09-2003, 10:47 PM
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One need not look any further than Germany to see what the outcome of the mass immigration carries with it.

In the 50's Germany needed migrant workers. They solicited and got thousands of Turks to come to their country to do all those odd jobs listed above. Actually some were well paying factory jobs at auto plants and alike.

Bear in mind these people went to germany as LEGAL MIGRANT workers. A few might have snuck into the country , but that is all.

The difference is they were all legal at the time of their entry into Germany. Who went there? Not the well educated Turks with jobs and familes. The people from remote villages, those with no skills and jobs. It was good while it lasted. Germany needed them they worked and sent money to their families back in Turkey.

A little later on some brought their families, some married to Germans. They had kids. Pretty soon Germans needed those jobs back. As the second generation of Turks were employed some Germans were going without work. All of a sudden they were willing to do those jobs. They were better than nothing.

Telling the Turks to go back was a joke. Some of their kids born in Germany had no more intention of going back to where they came from than my kids do.

They were asking "what the hell is a Turkey". They had never been there, and weren't about to leave and go soewhere where their ancestors came from.

This created (and still does) a lot of ethnic friction in a country where the jobs are not plentiful as they once were.
They are part of the landscape now and will forever remain that way.

This all started with legal immigration of a few thousand.
Imagine what is going to happen here when millions documented and probably as many NOT documented start making the same demands on the American culture few more years down the road.

Hell I am a beneficiary of this, and I am alarmed by it.
Bringing or allowing people in and looking the other way because Americans won't do this or won't do that is a poor excuse to let this cluster $uck we call immigration to go on unchecked.

If the illegals were not here,homes would still be built, beds will still be made and yes the crops will still be picked. If you can't pick them you won't plant them.

Any economy that lets illegal acts or labor balance it, is neither fair or worthy of being part of the American way.

If you own a business that can't employ an illegal alien you pay the prevailing wages. If that doesn't get you the help you want, you may have to pay a little more until you get someone to do the job.

Who decided the hotel stay should be $54.60. If the true cost of running that joint by employing legal labor would make the price go up another 3-5 bucks so be it!

You don't want cities like Oakland and San Francisco with budgetary difficulties to employ illegal aliens as cops, would you?

So it is ok for some industries and not ok for others. How fair is that?

I would like to pay a little less for my shoes. If Florsheim would only employ an illegal alien as a counterperson I may save $3.00.

If Las Vegas hired illegal aliens as dealers maybe they would let us win more, since their labor costs would be lower.

This is not the way to balance our economy on the backs of the people willing to do it for less than you and I. let the market place dictate the prices. Not the international labor pool.

TURK
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2003, 11:00 PM
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hmmmmmm.


GROSSE POINTE, MI—As part of the ongoing trend toward replacing U.S. workers with foreign labor, the marital duties of United Carborundum CEO Howard Reinhardt have been outsourced to his Mexican groundskeeper, industry sources revealed Monday.

"It was time for a change," said Reinhardt's wife Melanie, who has been married to the CEO for 17 years and has conducted her sexual business almost exclusively with him since 1984. "While I was generally satisfied with the level of servicing that I received under Howard, it was my feeling that a younger, more aggressive hand on the tiller might bring some new ideas into play. No matter how mutually satisfying the old deal was, its time had passed."

Although specific terms of the arrangement have not been made public, Melanie allowed that she has been "very pleased" by the new supplier—Jorge Escobedo, a 26-year-old gardener from Sierra Mojada who has been working in the U.S. since February.

"The switchover was seamless, considering how rapidly the deal was closed," said Melanie, who initiated the informal arrangement with Escobedo on Nov. 20, while he was cleaning the equipment shed. "Well, in truth, I was considering a move in this direction for some time, and looking into possibilities. Then Jorge offered me a very attractive package, and I decided it was in my interest to act. I've been very pleased with his initial performance."

Melanie said Escobedo beats her former provider in availability, reliability, and turnaround. He also requires minimal emotional investment from Melanie, who is the sole receiver of the goods under the new arrangement.


Above: Hardworking groundskeeper Jorge Escobedo and his employers, Howard and Melanie Reinhardt.
Melanie offered few details on the ins-and-outs of the deal, but she did report that the outsourcing is limited to Reinhardt's marital duties. All previous supply arrangements with Reinhardt, including those pertaining to housing and finance, are still very much in effect.

"This isn't some sort of challenge to the American workforce as a whole," Melanie said. "I'm just sending the jobs where they're going to be done most efficiently. The acquisition of houses, automobiles, and clothing will all still be in Howard's wheelhouse, but groundskeeping and plowing are now to be managed by Jorge. It just makes sense."

Melanie said the outsourcing is a direct response to the expansion of Reinhardt's duties at United Carborundum.

"Howard is simply too busy to personally keep track of every detail of the marital union," Melanie said. "As long as he's available when he's needed—major Reinhardt-family gatherings and the United Carborundum holiday ball—I'm happy to have someone else's input day-to-day."

The Reinhardt household has been moving toward a more modular operation for years now. Laundry duties are handled by a small Chinese concern; child-rearing and education are performed by a live-in salaried Irish employee; and a loosely organized, rotating consortium of Italians, Japanese, and Greeks handles food service. The sexual-services agreement, however, marks the Reinhardts' first use of highly skilled foreign manpower.

The news of the outsourcing was met with little surprise in the greater Detroit area, where community members are used to seeing hard-won jobs go to foreign labor, and are aware of cooling relations in the Reinhardt household.

"This proposal might not be the win-win situation that Melanie is projecting," said Philip Johannsen, business writer for the Detroit Free Press. "But it's going to be tough for Howard to say he didn't see it coming. When it came time to find a groundskeeper, he delegated the crucial domestic-hiring decision to his wife. He knows she's a very proactive person, so it shouldn't surprise him that she took the initiative to shore up areas of the household where she saw standards slipping."

"If American executives are not willing to shoulder the increased personal investment of time and energy required to keep the jobs in-house, globalization is just something they're going to have to accept," Johannsen added.

Howard Reinhardt was unavailable for comment, as he was scouting locations in Oaxaca for a boron-nitride facility.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2003, 11:05 PM
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Would this not be a classic "Reverse Stock SPLIT"?
I would like some options on this deal myself.
I wonder if she has plans to go International.

TURK
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2003, 11:31 PM
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Maybe a "package" deal ...lots of manual labor....with "fringe "benefits
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Old 12-10-2003, 05:14 AM
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I do not have a problem with anyone working here in the USA legally. But I do have a problem when they are not required to speak English.....

In my opinion there is only one language here..english and nothing else should be an option.

So be happy and have a Great Holiday.....
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2003, 05:47 AM
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This thread has become highly entertaining...Thanks to all who are contributing. It's doing worlds of good for my attitude.

I have seen printed statements that the world economy will be determined by the 95% of people who do NOT live in the United States. And yes, one can never blame another for wanting to raise their standard of living...especially since their view of our standard is driven by hollywood (don't those people ever leave the coffee shop?) images.

Ultimately, our standard of living will decline more than anyone else's will be raised. My position is that the transition should be controlled. Let's start with a 10% tax on every dollar leaving the country. After a year, reduce it to 9%, and so-on. This will provide monies to retrain, or build new industries.

Refer back to greed: I had to check the dictionary..."excessive or reprehensible acquisitiveness: AVARICE".

Just for a reality-check, let's see what corporations are doing business with, and American Workers are up against:
- Corruption. Most business in third-world countries can only take place in an environment of bribery.
- Slavery. They don't call it that, but India and China both allow forced labor.
- Child labor. The brass factories in India employ children, most of which do not reach adulthood. The carpet-weavers live longer.

I would much rather lose my job to an "illegal" Mexican with a strong work-ethic, than to encourage the economic system just described.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2003, 08:25 AM
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KobraKarl,

There are many examples of unions doing a disservice to themselves and their final customers. First off, do you think the level of product you get from union airlines is great or now just tolerable? Why are the new incumbant non-union carriers gaining market share on the fat dumb and happy airlines? Could it be they aren't paying $200K for an airline captain who now does so little stick and rudder flying, but makes more money than ever before? How about the California Long Shoremen? Crane Operators making 90 to 110K, their supervisors making 140K. It has gotten so expensive to unload ships on the west coast, the shipping companies are now going all the way around through the Panama canal and the eastern seaports are booming with new business. Why? The unions have made the LA basin ports uncompetitive. The union workers are still making their fat wages now for what is less work coming into the port. Ultimately they will be fat dumb and happy until there is nothing to unload anymore (an extreme example of what could happen if they don't smarten up). This is not what I call compensation commensarate with output. The price of labor when union is involved is more than when free market reigns and they ultimately will lose those jobs to outsourced workers, overseas workers, or other free market competitors where they do not have a lock on an industry. It has happened so many times in history it is predictable. The foreign car companies here are more successful and have a great work environment in many cases without unions when comared to some of the Detroit run factories. My 2 cents.
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Old 12-10-2003, 09:04 AM
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Kobra Karl,

The lady cleaning our room will probably be hispanic.

Why do you automatically assume she is illegal?
She may be part of the people that became citizens under the
Great amnesty, Regan's idea in the 80's.
Or Maybe not, but my point is how do you know?

TerrySPF,
If you are going to blame ILLEGALS then, blame them all.
If you are in the trades in Chicago area, You mean to tell me that the ILLEGAL Polish, & Romanian contractors don't cut in to your business?

ALL I am saying Guys, is don't just single out one race of people and say they are responsible for this. It goes much farther than that.
BLAME THEM ALL. Not just one part "Mexicans"
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Old 12-10-2003, 09:13 AM
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OK,,,,if you insist, I'll blame them all.
I'll blame the Fillipinos, Koreans, Chinnese, Japanese and the Portagese. But I'll have to do it quietly 'cause theres WAY MORE of them folks around my neighborhood than they are "Europeans", (uh, that would be me).

Ernie
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Old 12-10-2003, 09:49 AM
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ToyCollector.......don't even get me going on UNIONS! I've already expressed myself on the illegals flooding our nation and taking jobs.......but the unions - now THATS another story. I feel there may have been a time and a place in this country for Unions, but that time has come and gone. Teachers here in Illinois have been going on strike "one school at a time" ever since the school year began. They shut the school down, grab everyone by the short hairs, and demand more pay. The last strike here the teachers in Chicago wanted 10% raises. TEN Percent!! This during a slow economy and while people in other industries aren't getting raises at all, or worse yet.....being laid off. The teachers in my suburb make 90K yr and a nice pension when they retire (they were on strike a few years ago to get that). C'mon.......they work maybe 7.5 months out of the year. Don't get me wrong......education is important.......but what are we really getting for our money? Look how far behind (especially in math and science) our kids are compared to many others around the world (especially the orientals). On a 375K - 400K house in our 'burb, you pay $1000.00 / mo in property taxes (with the majority of that going to education). .......Bend over please!
As far as the union workers in the trades, they seem to do good work.........that is when their working! Everytime I walk in on them they seem to be on brake!
I would also like to put to rest this myth that mexicans are HARD working! Sure, they seem to be hard working because they are doing the jobs that most others wouldn't want to do. But, I'm here to tell you, if they aren't being supervised......they aren't working hard. I'll walk in on trade workers (drywallers, painters, even landscapers) and if their supervisor has stepped out for something.......they're standing around chatting, or cooking something up on their mini-stove!
I have no problem with human beings wanting to better their lives, and their families lives. And if they think coming to America will help them do that, then that's what they should do. BUT, do it LEGALLY. I think our government should apply more pressure on Mexico to give their residents more reason to stay there. A lot of American companies are moving some, or all of their facilities to Mexico for the cheaper labor. This is builing the Mexican economy, and creating a lot of jobs there.......but they still keep coming over here. Now our government needs to do more about our borders, and start rounding up the millions of illegals we have here already.
What gets me about all of this, is the things I hear on the job. These illegals sit around and laugh at how easy it was to get into our country.....how, once they are here, they can start living off the taxpayers......their children get educated for free (and some are being educated in Spanish speaking classes!)....their wives can become citizens, along with their unborn child once it is born (also paid for by us).....and how this country is starting to cater to them (spanish speaking TV and radio stations, politicians kissing their a$$es to get their vote, spanish speaking teachers, heck - spanish speaking EVERYTHING!!). Their favorite saying is: Mexico is invading America......and they never had to fire a shot!
What's it going to take before the fat, lazy people of this country (and our blind government officials) finally wake up and see what is happening here? One day there will be a hispanic in the White House, English will be our SECOND language here, and white's will be the minority (hispanics have already surpassed blacks as the biggest minority and they are growing at an alarming rate). ......But then it will be too late. OOOPS!

Last edited by TerrysSPF; 12-10-2003 at 02:31 PM..
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Old 12-10-2003, 09:57 AM
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SnakeOil: I DO blame ALL illegals......but others aren't coming accross our border at 10,000 a day! Sure, there are some Poll's in my business......hard working......and here LEGALLY (at least the ones I know). If they were here ILLEGALLY.....I'd be on THEM too! Still, they aren't coming here by the numbers that hispanics are.
The other problem with the American / Mexican border is.....what if someone else (terrorist anyone?) wanted to get into our country. They go right through Mexico because they know how easy it is to get through.
I hate to say it, but it may be time for a wall!
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Old 12-10-2003, 10:17 AM
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Ok, so we know there are a lot of problems in this country. Anybody got solutions?

Personally, I don't have a problem with a teacher getting $95k...it would attract people to the field and competition would elimate the bad ones. I DO have a problem with so many bureaucratic rules that there are 10 administrators for every teacher. I also have a problem with a professional athelete with a drug problem getting a $million and more. Where are American priorities?

Until WE decide that jobs, education, ethical government (don't get me started on Clinton), and our country are more important than the entertainment industry, our economy will continue to be seriously out-of-whack.
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Old 12-10-2003, 10:26 AM
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RockSnake: I agree.......but there is no competition in Teaching, and bad teachers aren't held accountable....due to the unions. Just try firing a bad teacher and see what happens.
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Old 12-10-2003, 10:28 AM
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JOB OPENING: We are looking for a degreed mechanical engineer or someone with an extensive engineering background for the expansion of our engineering department. They must be proficient with Solid Works. We desire an assertive, "out of the box" thinker who is not reticent about making a decision. This is a quality opportunity. Generous compensation package. Relocation to the Kansas City area for the right individual.

OK, Gentlemen and gentlewomen. Here's an example where the money goes when you "buy American". A new job has been created. And, yes, the opening is for real.

Please call PREMIER MotorSports, LLC 913-321-2225.
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Old 12-10-2003, 10:48 AM
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you ever notice the people who are really important dont get paid the best ? teachers are a great example,,
in the area in which I live,largely small farm community,mexicans have taken over,you cant even rent a cheap motel room now,they are rented weekly by one guy who houses 10 illegals there for profit{goodbye nooners,,lol}the weekly paper is dominated by arrest of assualt,theft,drunkenness by ,,Jose somebody or another,10 at a time riding in the back of a pickup,the police just ignore them until they have to respond to a call or complaint,they have no money,pay no taxes,so they dont need them in jail,,which is full of them by the way.
Suddenly guys wanting to make a quik buck buy 400 dollar cars,license them for the next year,and sell them from classifeds for 2000 oir so cash,these people buy them because they have a year driving with out relicensing .thus no proof of insurance required.driving our roads,mostly drinking at night,no insurance,no drivers license,"no speaky engli"
My wife or daughter wont go to the store or for gas after dark,,dozens hanging around loitering,it is getting out of hand.
The really sad thing is they are exploited by their own people,one guy who is educated will come,line up work,bring 30 others here seeking work,he collects the money for the job,keeps usually about 3/4,they get paid enough to get drunk on,and get to live in his farmhouse,no plumbing or lights,12 at a time,and PAY RENT to ,,you guess it,,the boss,they also get to eat at his resturant,shop at his ethnic grocery,it's the ultimate gold mine,mexican mafia.
do you know why a union employee is like a gun with a broken trigger ? It dosent work,and you cant fire it...Tim
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Old 12-10-2003, 11:25 AM
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Man, I have got to get into one of those unions you know it alls keep talking about I am a lowlife union employee, let's see I work 4 days on 4 days off, 12 hrs a day with no breaks and no lunch hour, we eat when there is time, if there is time, I work in the Oil Industry at an Oil Refinery for Shell Oil a very major company, I've seen people fired for lot's of various things just like in the real world you seem to think you live in and we don't, were they given a chance, sure they were warned and written up after that, your fair game, just because you saw some low rent guy's on the Sopranos sitting in chairs being show up workers, doesn't mean all Union workers are like that, anymore than Management people or business owners are all scum sucking dogs that want to keep there employees crushed beneath their feet, while they feed off of their employees blood and steal their 401k money!!
Just remember all you high dollar boys when wal mart and the other cut rate places take over who is going to be able to afford your products and services??
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Old 12-10-2003, 11:59 AM
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Since Walmart was mentioned before, and I emphasized how I find them to do some immoral things with their land grabs I thought I would point out a news item from today.

"Grand jury to consider Wal-Mart case
Retailer accused of using illegal workers to clean its stores "

By the way, these numbers are staggering:

Wal-Mart, which employs about 1.1 million people in the United States and 300,000 in other countries, had sales last year of $244.5 billion. The company has 1,494 discount stores, 1,386 Supercenters, 532 Sam's Clubs and 56 Neighborhood Markets in the United States.
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