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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2021, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
Ned,
California has not allowed the transfer of the VIN CSX2049 to be attached to this vehicle. It is California’s belief that the frame photos in the court case were in fact the remainder of the original frame and that the car was in the process of being restored. The court case photos show a 427 Cobra frame. California has put a stipulation in place that the car is to be inspected after the restoration, before it is deemed “CSX2049”.
The only thing that California has granted is the ownership of title. It is against the law to transfer title to another vehicle. Otherwise people could buy up all the valuable titles of cars that don’t exist anymore and build cars around the title and sell them for big bucks! Good example would be to buy a Kirkham chassis and buy a title from someone that had a Cobra that was destroyed and transfer that title onto the Kirkham. California would not know the difference but would SAAC accept this as a legitimate Cobra?
If a court so decreed, SAAC would accept a reconstructed car as the only vehicle entitled to claim the VIN, but with all the caveats associated with it, especially the fact that it was not the original.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2021, 04:48 PM
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I could see California issuing a California identification specific tag and number like they do with recovered thefts or Kit cars.
I believe it is a Federal, not state, offense to apply a VIN number to a vehicle that wasn’t born with it.

Last edited by CompClassics; 10-15-2021 at 04:55 PM..
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2021, 05:06 PM
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Not necessarily. There are many instances of vehicles being rebuilt with new components after a wreck. In CA, you are required to have a bonded agent inspect the reconstructed vehicle to ensure the VIN on the old vehicle matches the one on the new one. And the original VIN-stamping area is supposed to be removed and destroyed.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2021, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
Not necessarily. There are many instances of vehicles being rebuilt with new components after a wreck. In CA, you are required to have a bonded agent inspect the reconstructed vehicle to ensure the VIN on the old vehicle matches the one on the new one. And the original VIN-stamping area is supposed to be removed and destroyed.
Here's a prime example of exactly what is being described. This car was nothing but a piece of a frame with a serial number. The rest is a "reconstruction".

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...REATION-249541

Google "maserati birdcage" for lots more info.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2021, 05:45 PM
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There is no chance of that happening with this car, there are no original numbers as the chassis is new. This is the same situation that happened with kit car owners years ago that bought titles for 1960s era cars that no longer existed and applied them to their kit cars to get them registered, the only difference being is that this person bought a real Cobras title. A number of those owners owners soon found themselves in hot water.

All this paperwork owner did was find someone willing to sell him a title and he bought a new chassis/body and some original parts to attach the title to. As it turns out the person that bought the paperwork was also the person that went to court to get the title back into the persons name that he bought it from.

So what you are telling me is that I could take a brand new build and add some original 1960s paperwork and have a legitimate 1960s Cobra? Wouldn’t this be considered fraud?

Last edited by CompClassics; 10-15-2021 at 07:13 PM..
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2021, 06:45 PM
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Sounds rather fishy to me, opens the door to fantastic frauds. I'm feeling like I/m in the midst of such a legless scheme, JMHO

The feds refer to this as "Title Washing". an is considered a felony offense. Who is ready to reside in the Gray Bar Hotel??

Last edited by USC_COWBOY; 10-15-2021 at 06:47 PM.. Reason: additional thoughts
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 10-15-2021, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twobjshelbys View Post
Here's a prime example of exactly what is being described. This car was nothing but a piece of a frame with a serial number. The rest is a "reconstruction".

https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...REATION-249541

Google "maserati birdcage" for lots more info.
This isn’t even a partial frame with a VIN number, this is just paperwork with a newly built chassis and body.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2021, 06:31 AM
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So what you are telling me is that I could take a brand new build and add some original 1960s paperwork and have a legitimate 1960s Cobra? Wouldn’t this be considered fraud?
Please re-read post #81 above.
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2021, 07:59 AM
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So does anyone know what happened to the original 2/3 frame with the serial number on it? Does it still exist? Or maybe when the car currently in Europe was created they destroyed the old frame?
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 10-16-2021, 10:40 AM
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So does anyone know what happened to the original 2/3 frame with the serial number on it? Does it still exist? Or maybe when the car currently in Europe was created they destroyed the old frame?
It is pictured in the photos I posted on page 2. The frame was cut up and discarded after by the person that made the new frame for the car that is in Europe.
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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 10-17-2021, 10:55 AM
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Jeff,

I have heard rumors that there is a gold fiberglass body car replicating a competition Cobra out there somewhere in New England. I don't think it has any ties to parts from the original car or any claims to the original title.
Yes indeed.....
It’s a replica of 2375 but in gold vs Red, fell in love with color when Wayne and I took 3021 to Amelia. There are original period parts but it’s a tribute (replica) of the real thing.
It’s fun
It stinks
It’s bad on gas
It’s got the feel if the 60’s car without the cost.
I know what it is.
So does everyone else
I am happy with it and it gets driven often.
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Last edited by 1985 CCX; 10-17-2021 at 02:34 PM..
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2021, 01:15 AM
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The situation you don’t want to find yourself in…..

https://reason.com/2021/10/18/althou...vKjbqEasH1jO2k
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 10-19-2021, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
The situation you don’t want to find yourself in…..

https://reason.com/2021/10/18/althou...vKjbqEasH1jO2k
So the interesting bit seems to be:

KCTV, a Kansas City CBS station, reports that the dashboard VIN plate on Martinez's Corvette was removed years ago during the car's restoration and replaced with new rivets. "Many states are flexible on how the VIN is reattached after restoration," says KCTV, noting that the car already had been licensed and registered in another state. "But Kansas is not so flexible." The station adds that "the VIN number on the engine was no help," because "the original engine in the 62-year-old car had been replaced." Using a mirror, police located a third, inconsistent VIN plate in a "secret" location under the car.

A while ago another forum member was working on his father's original Cobra. He was putting in a more accurate motor, a 289, to replace a boss 302 motor that was swapped in years ago. He was also putting in a new passenger side foot box since the boss 302 motor swap involved making some modifications to the original passenger side foot box, so why not put in a new footbox when making the car more period correct looking. Well as you know there is a serial number tag on original 289 Cobra's passenger foot box attached with rivets (well after a certain serial number anyway, early Cobras do not have that tag). So I wonder if reattaching a serial number tag to a replacement passenger side foot box on an original Cobra could cause problems in Kansas?

Although in the case of the Corvette in Kansas, they found another "secret" vin under the car. I wonder what "secret" VIN means? Could it be that someone attached a VIN plate somewhere under the car for some reason? Or do all Corvettes have a standard "secret" VIN plate attached at the factory when they are built? Well I suppose the problem is that there are 2 VIN plates on the Corvette and they don't match.

Hmm, I wonder if there are some original Cobras that might have inconsistent VINs on them. Like maybe the Mister Formal Wear Cobra that had the CSX3005 body swapped onto the CSX3102 chassis? Well that was a rather special body until someone "restored" it recently.
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Old 10-22-2021, 10:13 AM
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amazingly the 2008 and the 2019 registries tell completely different stories about 2049, being curios which story the 2029 edition will tell....
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2021, 10:33 AM
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amazingly the 2008 and the 2019 registries tell completely different stories about 2049, being curios which story the 2029 edition will tell....
Looks as if you're late to the conversation. You obviously missed post #44 entirely.
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Old 10-22-2021, 11:26 AM
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amazingly the 2008 and the 2019 registries tell completely different stories about 2049, being curios which story the 2029 edition will tell....
I had pointed out that the 1987 and 2008 registries told different stories too.

However from following this thread, it seems that the guy who has the title, does not have the original frame and most likely has no other parts from the original car left, so what exactly will make his eventual "restoration" of CSX 2049 worth any more than the car in Europe, which did not use any part of the original frame either?

In the end, if the guy with the title is really just going to do is buy a Kirham (or an AC Brooklands or something similar) and "restore" that into CSX 2049 with his title, I am not really sure that is really worth any more than having a really nice Cobra replica without the CSX 2049 serial number. I guess someone will be willing to pay a bit of a premium for the serial number attached to a nice replica, but how much of a premium would someone pay?
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2021, 11:37 AM
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Looks as if you're late to the conversation. You obviously missed post #44 entirely.
I missed that post obviously , sorry for crashing the party
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2021, 01:22 PM
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There really ought to be a mandatory disclaimer attached to the title of all "air cars" stating: This vehicle is NOT the original car built under this VIN, nor does it contain any of it's significant original chassis, parts or components.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2021, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 1ntCobra View Post
I had pointed out that the 1987 and 2008 registries told different stories too.

However from following this thread, it seems that the guy who has the title, does not have the original frame and most likely has no other parts from the original car left, so what exactly will make his eventual "restoration" of CSX 2049 worth any more than the car in Europe, which did not use any part of the original frame either?

In the end, if the guy with the title is really just going to do is buy a Kirham (or an AC Brooklands or something similar) and "restore" that into CSX 2049 with his title, I am not really sure that is really worth any more than having a really nice Cobra replica without the CSX 2049 serial number. I guess someone will be willing to pay a bit of a premium for the serial number attached to a nice replica, but how much of a premium would someone pay?

There are original parts being used in the reconstruction. I won't speculate on values, because every car is different and in the end, it's up to the buyers to determine what a car is worth to them.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2021, 07:25 PM
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There really ought to be a mandatory disclaimer attached to the title of all "air cars" stating: This vehicle is NOT the original car built under this VIN, nor does it contain any of it's significant original chassis, parts or components.
I consider "air-cars" to be those which have no claim whatsoever to the VIN they are claiming. In the case of a car like 2049 where a chain of ownership can be demonstrated, the facts are usually clear as to how it may have been rebuilt and under what circumstances. That, in large part, is why organizations like SAAC exist and what we do our best to properly present in the various Registries.
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