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  #141 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post

I have pictures of an early car used for publicity and has all the unique characteristics of our Cobra, slabside, red, black and silver competition stripe. I've looked at tens of thousands of Cobra photos and have never seen on with five rows of louvres at the rear of the hood and no intake scoop.

My goal is to make sure the records are correct and that no one usurps Paul's race history and ownership.

As for the so-called paper trail with Ann Abidin, many years ago I had a Cobra expert that investigated it and concluded that the paperwork was created to bolster a bogus cobra.
As for the early car used in publicity photos, I wonder if it might have been CSX 2067, which was given to Carol Conners? Like 2049, it was red/black, was sold to Downtown Ford in Los Angeles, and shows on its invoice "louvered hood."


As for the so-called "expert" who suggests the CA DMV registration paperwork for CSX 2049 is fictitious, I again request for something - anything - to demonstrate an alternate history. In the absence of anything beyond wild claims without any substantiation whatsoever, the argument is a non-starter.
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  #142 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
As for the early car used in publicity photos, I wonder if it might have been CSX 2067, which was given to Carol Conners? Like 2049, it was red/black, was sold to Downtown Ford in Los Angeles, and shows on its invoice "louvered hood."


As for the so-called "expert" who suggests the CA DMV registration paperwork for CSX 2049 is fictitious, I again request for something - anything - to demonstrate an alternate history. In the absence of anything beyond wild claims without any substantiation whatsoever, the argument is a non-starter.
I have this photo also, it is the only photo that I have been able to examine that has the louvred hood, no scoop, special stripe, etc. I have literally examined 10,000 plus photos and this is the only example of our Cobra.

I don't know who labeled CSX2049 as the Cunningham Cobra and a different chassis may be the answer to all this twisted puzzle.

This very well could be the Cunningham Cobra before it would have been prepared by the factory for competition.

I ask a simple question...in the earliest Cobras, Mark I's could the chassis be more like the ACE and have some of the more beefy Shelby modifications as he discovered weaknesses. A hybrid chassis if you will.
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  #143 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
I

I ask a simple question...in the earliest Cobras, Mark I's could the chassis be more like the ACE and have some of the more beefy Shelby modifications as he discovered weaknesses. A hybrid chassis if you will.
Simply put: NO. The Shelby organization worked closely with the AC Cars factory to make modifications they both felt might be beneficial to the chassis, steering, suspension, etc. before the Cobra went into production. Even the earliest examples, after Shelby's prototype CSX 2000, demonstrated these modifications that distinguish them from an early Ace chassis. Were further modifications made as production continued? Absolutely. But ask any expert to examine the photos you have provided of the chassis you believe was the Cunningham Cobra and I believe you will receive the same response: not a Cobra chassis.
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  #144 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
I have this photo also, it is the only photo that I have been able to examine that has the louvred hood, no scoop, special stripe, etc. I have literally examined 10,000 plus photos and this is the only example of our Cobra.

I don't know who labeled CSX2049 as the Cunningham Cobra and a different chassis may be the answer to all this twisted puzzle.

This very well could be the Cunningham Cobra before it would have been prepared by the factory for competition.
I suspect that, absent a knowledge of the files we maintain on each chassis number, it might be difficult to understand how much data we actually have and how it all relates to the entire production history. If you look again at the Carol Connors Cobra in post #141, you'll note the CA license plate GBF358 on the front. This plate is referenced twice in the Shelby American factory documents: it was somehow supposed to be attached to CSX 2024, but was mistakenly placed on CSX 2067 instead when it was gifted to Connors. It took a while for the paperwork error to be worked out. The GBF358 plate was eventually transferred to CSX 2024: I know this because I examined the car in San Diego 5 years ago when it came up for sale, at which time it still used the same license plate. But the car in the publicity photo can only be CSX 2067, as (a) it was the car given to Connors; (b) it was originally given the GBF358 plate; and (C) just like one can see in the photo, it has the exact equipment - including the louvered hood - listed on the sales invoice. Connors enjoyed the car until a serious wreck by the Laurel Canyon put her through the windshield. It took two years for her wounds to heal. And 2067 was scrapped and later destroyed. It was definitely not the Cunningham Cobra prior to being prepared for competition.
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  #145 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2021, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
I suspect that, absent a knowledge of the files we maintain on each chassis number, it might be difficult to understand how much data we actually have and how it all relates to the entire production history. If you look again at the Carol Connors Cobra in post #141, you'll note the CA license plate GBF358 on the front. This plate is referenced twice in the Shelby American factory documents: it was somehow supposed to be attached to CSX 2024, but was mistakenly placed on CSX 2067 instead when it was gifted to Connors. It took a while for the paperwork error to be worked out. The GBF358 plate was eventually transferred to CSX 2024: I know this because I examined the car in San Diego 5 years ago when it came up for sale, at which time it still used the same license plate. But the car in the publicity photo can only be CSX 2067, as (a) it was the car given to Connors; (b) it was originally given the GBF358 plate; and (C) just like one can see in the photo, it has the exact equipment - including the louvered hood - listed on the sales invoice. Connors enjoyed the car until a serious wreck by the Laurel Canyon put her through the windshield. It took two years for her wounds to heal. And 2067 was scrapped and later destroyed. It was definitely not the Cunningham Cobra prior to being prepared for competition.
Ned, I do not know you or even have met you, but you makes us all proud the way you handle these questions. You speak the truth, are factual and never insulting even when I feel someone is trying to get your goat. Keep up the good fight. I also must let you know I am enjoying this thread because of all the information I am leaning about SAAC.
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  #146 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2021, 12:34 PM
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Carol Connors had a wrecked Ace she probably left with Shelby.
That would put the Ace and Cobra at Shelbys at the same time both with front end damage.
It was her ex-boyfriend’s she said in an interview.
She dated and made music with famous people.
Maybe just maybe you have that chassis
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  #147 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2021, 05:11 PM
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As noted in the Leaf Spring Registry…

Following the wreck of CSX2049, SAI expressed their interest in examining the wreck to determine if there were any construction defects that may have led to the wreck. Where is the report/documentation of this failure analysis? Who was involved and what was done?

A lien was being pursued by SAI in April 1964 to gain control of the wrecked chassis. Where is the paperwork? Wouldn’t it be processed through a Superior Court?

It seems that specific paperwork is lacking regarding the disposition of the wrecked CSX2049 Cunningham Cobra. I will state that the Cunningham family was not approached by SAI regarding the wrecked CSX2049 Cunningham Cobra.

If this is the standard operating procedure of SAI regarding wrecked Cobras, such as ours, CSX2067 Carol Conners, and others, how many have met their demise at SAI being cut up, parted, cannibalized, with pieces going to the winds without specific documentation?

Wesselink’s project car claims to be the reincarnation of CSX2049, and Ned seems to know a lot about what was and what was not used from the CSX2049 wreck. We do know that a new body and chassis was manufactured by AC Cars, what part(s) were utilized from the original CSX2049 Cobra? Hasselrig had a lot of the parts from the wrecked CSX2049, including doors, trunk lid, etc. Just what was utilized in the new project car? A new body from AC Cars would have been manufactured with doors and trunk lid, did Wesselink/Hasselrig use the old parts or simply cut and paste the identifying portions?

I suspect that the new chassis was constructed from 4 inch main tubes and not the lighter and more fragile 3 inch main tubes since all the newer models have the 4 inch main tube design. Older chassis of the 1962 era were welded differently from the newer construction methods and materials.

Let’s visit the litigation Wesselink brought against the State, to perfect the title on the wrecked CSX2049. What specific evidence was presented by Wesselink/Hasselrig to claim title? Did Cobra Experts examine the evidence and make a finding? Who are they and what did they have to say? Was the evidence presented really from CSX2049 or some other car. Wouldn’t a Cobra Expert be able to recognize the legitimacy of the claim, by examining the materials used, welding techniques, finishing methods? Where are the records? Wouldn’t this have a case number and a Superior Court identified in the litigation. Is it possible that the Superior Court was misled/bamboozled leading to a false designation?

Considering the depth and size of this forum thread, why have we not heard from Wesselink/Hasselrig regarding the legitimacy of their claim to CSX2049, there are many on the thread with extensive friends in the Cobra Community, I am sure that someone has contacted them.

So far, I am the only one that has posted my specific information such as my real name, my contact information, email, etc. If you are out there why not identify yourself like I did.

I am going to do all I can to bring light to this claim and to clear the records regarding Paul Cunningham, and CSX2049. All I can do for now is to be patient, participate in the dialogue and hold out hope that those with first hand history and knowledge come forth and share their piece of the continuing dialogue.

Bless you all for the following and details presented, truth will prevail.
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  #148 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2021, 05:48 PM
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I will be interested to hear answers to the questions and arrive at the truth as well. I suspect we already know a lot of it.
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  #149 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2021, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
If this is the standard operating procedure of SAI regarding wrecked Cobras, such as ours
This statement needs further clarification as to what I highlighted in red. As far as I can tell at this time, you have a cut up AC Ace chassis, and not that of a Cobra, real, replica, or continuation series.

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  #150 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2021, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
This statement needs further clarification as to what I highlighted in red. As far as I can tell at this time, you have a cut up AC Ace chassis, and not that of a Cobra, real, replica, or continuation series.

Bill S.
such as ours refers to CSX2049
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  #151 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2021, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
This statement needs further clarification as to what I highlighted in red. As far as I can tell at this time, you have a cut up AC Ace chassis, and not that of a Cobra, real, replica, or continuation series.

Bill S.
Well you know that there are some strange stories involved with these cars and sometimes the truth only comes out much later when some new facts are found. However I doubt at this time that any new facts are likely to be found to support what Michael is saying.

However there are two different things to think about here. One is that Michael has a frame that he believes was from his father's car that was returned by a mysterious Shelby employee. It seems that the frame he has is not a Cobra frame, so even if there was a mysterious Shelby employee who returned a frame to his family, the frame that was returned was not the correct frame.

On the other hand, when Michael says "If this is the standard operating procedure of SAI regarding wrecked Cobras, such as ours" that is a different matter. Michael believes (or claims to believe) that the Cobra that his father raced belonged to his father/family at the time of the crash, so "such as ours" is related to his family owning the car at the time of the crash, regardless of whatever the frame is that is currently in his posession.

So is it possible that Michael's father actually owned the car that he raced? And perhaps somehow Ann Abiden ended up with a title to sell the wreck to Hasselrig? Wild random speculation could include ideas like Ann had a different early car but mistakenly got a title for CSX2049? After all, early cars did not have the easily found serial number tag on the footbox, which caused problems for CSX2067. Or maybe Shelby actually got a lien on CSX2049 and sold it it Ann who later sold it to Hasselrig? Or maybe Santa Claus dropped off the wreck and its title under Ann's Christmas tree to sell to Hasselrig?

Michael may truly believe that his father owned the car, since he was there at the time that his father raced the car. But sometimes what family tells the kids is not always the truth. When my one grandmother was in her 80's she was shocked when she learned that her "aunt" that came over from the old country after WWII was not actually her "aunt", but was her "step sister". You know it is possible that Michael's father told Michael that he "owned" the car, but maybe he was just the driver?

Anyway Michael's father drove the car. Michael was there at the time. Perhaps his father did own the car. But it seems that if Michael's father did have a title, that is long gone, so what can he do? Most people who would have something to say are no longer living. Is there someone who Michael could talk to get some new facts? Is there still a Shelby employee reunion? Maybe someone at the reunion would remember something? Actually I doubt that anyone would remember something about a particular wreck all these years later.
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  #152 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2021, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
such as ours refers to CSX2049
Call me a cynic (I am, admit it 100%) if you like, but extraordinary claims require extraordinary, iron clad proof in my eyes, especially when speaking about original cobras. I have yet to see any definitive proof of actual possession or ownership on CSX2049. Your "Shelby expert" was wrong about the chassis remains you have in your possession, what else, based on 3rd party memories and stories passed down, may not be all they are held up as? The SAAC registrar, a man whos integrity has never been in question, has already chimed in, he has graciously taken the time away from his family life to respond to your questions and claims, has asked for additional, iron clad information, which so far, you have yet to provide here in this discussion thread. If you have the information you say you do, why play coy, post it here, out in public, and let the chips fall where they may. I have, history shows, sometimes I'm right, and sometimes I'm wrong, the jury is still out on this one, and I personally, eagerly await being found wrong in this case.

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  #153 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2021, 01:52 PM
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It seems as though many of you in this forum are focused on me, the actual flesh and blood of the family that owned CSX2049, to produce specific documentation regarding our Cobra.

Well, isn't it about time the keepers of the most complete Cobra history files produce ...

the original sales invoice from SAI to Ann Abidin,

the work orders for the conversion of a street Cobra to a factory competition prepped Cobra, with specifics as to what was done and by who, cost, intake and delivery dates.

We have been told of the treasure trove of SAI documentation, paperwork, etc. that was found when the office moved. I am sure that each and every scrap of paper was archived as they recognized the value to the SAAC.

Produce the documents, put them up on this forum for all to see.
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  #154 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2021, 02:09 PM
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I would assume that Wesselink himself as well as Hasselrig are following this forum topic and providing input in their favor to certain others or even under a posting alias.

Makes me wonder who wrote the Registry change, was it Wesselink? In my opinion,
possibly and why and under what conditions was the narrative presented to SAAC? Again and in my opinion, he obviously wanted to increase the value of his newly fabricated car, money is a great motivator, pressure under threat of a lawsuit? In my opinion, possibly.

Patience will prove out, and will allow the truth about all this to come to light.

BTW, I am well stocked with flashlight batteries.
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  #155 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2021, 03:29 PM
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Have we not concluded CSX2049 is no longer except in pictures?
I am turning my flashlight off.........
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  #156 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2021, 04:23 PM
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This is the best thread on this forum.
Actually involved parties are keeping it civil, great discussion, very informative, thanks Gents!
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  #157 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2021, 06:20 PM
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One thing that I do find intriguing is that many of the records of CSX2049's race history list Cunningham as not only the driver, but the actual entrant of the car. Example here:
https://www.racingsportscars.com/cha...s/CSX2049.html

Is it normal for a driver to be listed as the entrant in old race records?
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  #158 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2021, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz View Post

Is it normal for a driver to be listed as the entrant in old race records?
Happened quite frequently, it really depends on the race organization and their specific rules and regulations for the time period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
I would assume that Wesselink himself as well as Hasselrig are following this forum topic and providing input in their favor to certain others or even under a posting alias.
Don't count on it

Quote:
Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Well, isn't it about time the keepers of the most complete Cobra history files produce ...

the original sales invoice from SAI to Ann Abidin,

the work orders for the conversion of a street Cobra to a factory competition prepped Cobra, with specifics as to what was done and by who, cost, intake and delivery dates.

We have been told of the treasure trove of SAI documentation, paperwork, etc. that was found when the office moved. I am sure that each and every scrap of paper was archived as they recognized the value to the SAAC.

Produce the documents, put them up on this forum for all to see.
The problem is, that you are the one who made claims, but have yet to post anything of substance to back them up. As such, you have the burden of showing the proof of what you claim, not the other way around.

Just knowing the integrity of the registrars at SAAC, when they say something, or correct someone on something, they always have the documentation to back it up. Otherwise, they do not say much of anything in public. Again, to post everything they have in their files in public, could most likely lead to more "air cars" being reproduced. Sure you want to be educated, but that same education would then be available to those who have less intentions of doing the right thing, if you catch my drift.

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  #159 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2021, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
One thing that I do find intriguing is that many of the records of CSX2049's race history list Cunningham as not only the driver, but the actual entrant of the car. Example here:
https://www.racingsportscars.com/cha...s/CSX2049.html

Is it normal for a driver to be listed as the entrant in old race records?
Yes, when you are the owner you are the entrant, and if you are the driver you are also named. The information is taken from the entrant registration form for all cars registered to compete and go through technical inspection held usually a couple of weeks before the race, usually at a automobile dealership, such as Hollywood Sports Cars in Hollywood, CA.

Sponsors are also given credits in the race program
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Old 10-30-2021, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
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Happened quite frequently, it really depends on the race organization and their specific rules and regulations for the time period.



Don't count on it



The problem is, that you are the one who made claims, but have yet to post anything of substance to back them up. As such, you have the burden of showing the proof of what you claim, not the other way around.

Just knowing the integrity of the registrars at SAAC, when they say something, or correct someone on something, they always have the documentation to back it up. Otherwise, they do not say much of anything in public. Again, to post everything they have in their files in public, could most likely lead to more "air cars" being reproduced. Sure you want to be educated, but that same education would then be available to those who have less intentions of doing the right thing, if you catch my drift.

Bill S.
I do understand. If this question of ownership and the possibility of a fraudulent claim was to be pursued the records would surely be subpoened and put into evidence, and a sworn testimony would also be heard by the trier of fact. As an actual living, breathing family member with first hand knowledge any affidavits, testimony, etc. would be held in highest regard.

DMV/CHP already are going to require an extremely inspection and proofs as a condition of the proceedings earlier by Wesselink/Hasselrig litigation to gain title. I will be providing a written narrative regarding this twisted ownership situation, I refuse to be a bystander with respect to my dad, his racing history and his place in the larger Shelby Cobra story.
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