Researching any info re: Paul Cunningham, Competition Cobra privateer

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by Blackbart

I've followed this thread with interest. I can't imagine this is the only CSX car with such a diverse "history". Thank you to all the experts out there doing their best to document these cars. I've watched what I thought was the original CSX 2049 race at Goodwood for many years. I have one question, is the Hart car(Netherlands) a knockoff of CSX 2049. If so, how can they advertise the car as 2049?

The manager of the storage facility in which Lance stored 2049 sold the wrecked chassis remains. The front portion with the VIN intact went through several owners before the car was restored with a new chassis, after which it was sold to the Netherlands as CSX 2049. That is the car that races at Goodwood.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

Ned,

Since you have information about Hasselrig getting a loan to purchase CSX2049 do you know how much the loan was for? Or how much he paid for the car? Presumably it must have been a bargain price at the time since it was a very damaged car. I am not sure a bank would want to issue a loan for a car that seemed to be totaled, but I guess he would not have had to disclose the car's condition at the time he got the loan.

The car was financed through Haselrig's local Auto Club office. And yes, we have copies of the paperwork. He bought the wreck for $400 with payments of $50 per month.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

The manager of the storage facility in which Lance stored 2049 sold the wrecked chassis remains. The front portion with the VIN intact went through several owners before the car was restored with a new chassis, after which it was sold to the Netherlands as CSX 2049. That is the car that races at Goodwood.

So the front portion of the chassis with the VIN intact was stolen and used as the basis to construct an entirely new car without using any part of that original chassis?

And then I guess after it was realized that the front portion of the original chassis was stolen it was returned to Hasselrig who had a title to the car?

I am surprised that when the new chassis was built they did not try to use some part of the original chassis in the new chassis, like the part that had the serial number stamped in it. I am also surprised that the remains of the original chassis were not destroyed to get rid of it at the time the new chassis was made.

[CompClassics]

The photos that I had posted previously of the frame (page 2) are the original remains that had been bought and sold until finally being sold to the person that built into a car around the CSX2049 VIN number, there is at least 2/3 of the chassis’s main structure there. Not only that but there is also one door frame with the CSX2049 VIN number on it. So the 2/3 of the chassis that was purchased had two of the cars stamped VIN numbers on it.
I am privy to the court case involving the lawsuit to get the CSX2049 VIN back into Haselrig’s possession. I will have to go back and look at the court paperwork but there seems to be some differences in the court documents description of how the car was finances and paid for. Ned, maybe you and I can have a private discussion on that. My understanding is that Haselirig worked out a payment schedule with Abiden in 1963 that was paid off and the car was collected in 1967, a $400 price for the car at $50 a month tells me the car should have been paid off much sooner than 1967? I do know that direct payments were made to Abiden and were supposedly recorded on whatever scrap paper was available which seems like an odd process for a bank loan. Why would the payments be made to Abiden vs the loan generator? There appears to be two conflicting stories as to how this car was purchased.

[Nedsel]

John, it wasn't a bank loan, but made through the local auto-club. Irregular, to be sure. We have copies of the loan payments made to Abiden, but not the payments made to the lender.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

So the front portion of the chassis with the VIN intact was stolen and used as the basis to construct an entirely new car without using any part of that original chassis?

And then I guess after it was realized that the front portion of the original chassis was stolen it was returned to Hasselrig who had a title to the car?

I am surprised that when the new chassis was built they did not try to use some part of the original chassis in the new chassis, like the part that had the serial number stamped in it. I am also surprised that the remains of the original chassis were not destroyed to get rid of it at the time the new chassis was made.

If you read the synopsis of the car's history in the Registry, this is covered. There was a lawsuit filed over the stolen chassis remains. Their ultimate disposition was never fully revealed. The current owners of the car are open about the fact that the wrecked remains are not being utilized in the reconstruction of 2049.

[Blue66]

Wow what a cluster Amazing Story and facts.

[USC_COWBOY]

Folks, now you see why I believe this is a concocted history of ownership as no one, at any time, has a complete ownership, pieces here, pieces there, traditional and regular ways and means to get to an end. In my opinion, several air-cars have been built with one in the Netherlands (Hart's car) being sold for millions and another one in Encinitas, CA being built and all of them without clear claims of ownership. Also, all this flim flam style of buying and selling done without the Cunningham ownership involvement, and shame on Shelby for not dealing with the Cunningham family before all this crap started.

This whole laughable story reminds me of how dirty money is laundered through multiple paper corporations to hide the truth. My hope and curse regarding those evil people is that they obtain their just rewards as they ultimately have their bastard creations help them meet their demise.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

If you read the synopsis of the car's history in the Registry, this is covered. There was a lawsuit filed over the stolen chassis remains. Their ultimate disposition was never fully revealed. The current owners of the car are open about the fact that the wrecked remains are not being utilized in the reconstruction of 2049.

Hi Ned, and thanks for shedding light on this very interesting saga. One question - can a car really be "reconstructed" without repairing or rebuilding any part of the original chassis? Can the title of an original Cobra be transferred to any vehicle that the legal holder of that title decides to attach it to - ie: a scratch-built Cobra (or even say - a Lotus Seven clone for that matter)?

[patrickt]

... and this thread is one reason why Jay Leno owns a replica Cobra.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

If you read the synopsis of the car's history in the Registry, this is covered. There was a lawsuit filed over the stolen chassis remains. Their ultimate disposition was never fully revealed. The current owners of the car are open about the fact that the wrecked remains are not being utilized in the reconstruction of 2049.

I guess I should get a copy of the latest registry as my older copies are out of date.

So it seems that the car in Europe was created based on ownership of the original chassis at the time but not a valid title.

And Hasselrig has a valid title, but apparently does not have the original chassis.

So the car in Europe is an illegitimate air car and Hasselrig will eventually have an legitimate air car? And who knows where the original chassis is, but it cannot be used to create a real CSX2049 anymore?

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

I guess I should get a copy of the latest registry as my older copies are out of date.

So it seems that the car in Europe was created based on ownership of the original chassis at the time but not a valid title.

And Hasselrig has a valid title, but apparently does not have the original chassis.

So the car in Europe is an illegitimate air car and Hasselrig will eventually have an legitimate air car? And who knows where the original chassis is, but it cannot be used to create a real CSX2049 anymore?

And then I am forgetting that Michael has frame pieces that with no serial numbers on them from a Shelby employee. And since there are pictures of the 2/3 of the original frame of CSX2049, it seems that Michael's frame pieces are from a different car than CSX2049.

I think I asked before, but I don't think Michael replied. Does Michael know who the Shelby employee was who gave his mother the car remains? And if so is that employee still alive?

[CompClassics]

These are my opinions as to CSX2049.

Unfortunately both Abidens, mother and son, are no longer alive to fill in any blanks regarding their ownership of the car and it’s disposition.
Ned, you are correct in my opinion there are no parts from CSX2049 that are being utilized to assemble this car that can be confirmed as coming directly from CSX2049. The only thing in the court awarded ownership of is the cars title. After seeing what was used as evidence of “a % of ownership of CSX2049’s parts” during the lawsuit I can say that the court was duped into believing these parts were parts from CSX2049 is a sham in itself. Any investigator should have been able to look at casting numbers and date codes at the minimum to realize that the parts were not relevant to that particular car. Then there were the differences in the parts that were from a worm and sector car vs a rack and pinion car. Then there are the photographs of a chassis being worked on, a 427 chassis at that.
I am not saying that Abiden did or did not own the car, and I am also not saying that Haselrig did not buy the remains of CSX2049. I had in fact found a race entry where Abiden was listed as the entrant, although “Abiden” was misspelled.
It is my opinion that given Haselrig’s occupation (body shop owner) at the time that the remains of CSX2049 were purchased by Haselrig and the car was subsequently parted out in period, scattering CSX2049 to the wind. Because it was parted out there was no need for a transfer of ownership of CSX2049 reported to the DMV, although legally he was required to. Because Haselrig never reported the sale or destruction of CSX2049 he was still the legal owner on record with the DMV, even though CSX2049 itself ceased to exist. These are my own opinions after researching and being an eyewitness to the parts involved in the car being created.

[1985 CCX]

John

Are you really saying that "A Biden" had something to do with this? (possibly Joe himself?)
Now we are getting deep!
Hunter may now even own a peice of this as he seems to get around.......

Ok, kidding. True enough and I bet this is not only limited to 2049.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

John

Are you really saying that "A Biden" had something to do with this? (possibly Joe himself?)
Now we are getting deep!
Hunter may now even own a peice of this as he seems to get around.......

Ok, kidding. True enough and I bet this is not only limited to 2049.

Jeff,

I have heard rumors that there is a gold fiberglass body car replicating a competition Cobra out there somewhere in New England. I don't think it has any ties to parts from the original car or any claims to the original title.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY

Folks, now you see why I believe this is a concocted history of ownership as no one, at any time, has a complete ownership, pieces here, pieces there, traditional and regular ways and means to get to an end. In my opinion, several air-cars have been built with one in the Netherlands (Hart's car) being sold for millions and another one in Encinitas, CA being built and all of them without clear claims of ownership. Also, all this flim flam style of buying and selling done without the Cunningham ownership involvement, and shame on Shelby for not dealing with the Cunningham family before all this crap started.
.

While I understand your frustration, I disagree with your conclusions. I have shared ownership documents from Ann Abiden, along with a sale to Lanse Haselrig, while you have shared your thoughts that Paul Cunningham may have owned the car, absent any documentation. While you offer the thought that you still have the remains of the Cobra, you have thus far provided only photos of a junk AC Ace chassis. I look forward to more definitive proof of Cunningham's ownership.

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by Buzz

Hi Ned, and thanks for shedding light on this very interesting saga. One question - can a car really be "reconstructed" without repairing or rebuilding any part of the original chassis? Can the title of an original Cobra be transferred to any vehicle that the legal holder of that title decides to attach it to - ie: a scratch-built Cobra (or even say - a Lotus Seven clone for that matter)?

If I understand correctly, the CA courts have determined that in this case, the fact that clear evidence was presented documenting theft of the legitimate chassis remains from the legal owner, coupled with no credible ownership claims by anyone else, allows them to reconstruct a car using parts that mimic the originals. This is by no means a universal occurrence.

[CompClassics]

“Ok, kidding. True enough and I bet this is not only limited to 2049”

Nope this is not an isolated case, there are more than people realize. It is my understanding that this is why the SAAC Registry was created, to protect the integrity of the original cars.

[CompClassics]

Ned,
California has not allowed the transfer of the VIN CSX2049 to be attached to this vehicle. It is California’s belief that the frame photos in the court case were in fact the remainder of the original frame and that the car was in the process of being restored. The court case photos show a 427 Cobra frame. California has put a stipulation in place that the car is to be inspected after the restoration, before it is deemed “CSX2049”.
The only thing that California has granted is the ownership of title. It is against the law to transfer title to another vehicle. Otherwise people could buy up all the valuable titles of cars that don’t exist anymore and build cars around the title and sell them for big bucks! Good example would be to buy a Kirkham chassis and buy a title from someone that had a Cobra that was destroyed and transfer that title onto the Kirkham. California would not know the difference but would SAAC accept this as a legitimate Cobra?

[USC_COWBOY]

Originally Posted by 1ntCobra

And then I am forgetting that Michael has frame pieces that with no serial numbers on them from a Shelby employee. And since there are pictures of the 2/3 of the original frame of CSX2049, it seems that Michael's frame pieces are from a different car than CSX2049.

I think I asked before, but I don't think Michael replied. Does Michael know who the Shelby employee was who gave his mother the car remains? And if so is that employee still alive?

My deceased sister was the one relating the delivery of the wreck parts, she did not know the persons name, how she knew that it was a Shelby person had to of come from my mom as she was the only other person with any contact, no one else was a part of the household.