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Kirkham Motorsports

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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2021, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
Ned,
....
The only thing that California has granted is the ownership of title. It is against the law to transfer title to another vehicle. Otherwise people could buy up all the valuable titles of cars that don’t exist anymore and build cars around the title and sell them for big bucks! Good example would be to buy a Kirkham chassis and buy a title from someone that had a Cobra that was destroyed and transfer that title onto the Kirkham. California would not know the difference but would SAAC accept this as a legitimate Cobra?
2404 is described in the 2019 SAAC registry as a 289 Kirkham that was mated with the 2404 VIN and the original paperwork,

therefore I assume the answer is ,yes'

Last edited by peterpjb; 10-25-2021 at 01:35 AM..
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2021, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
There are original parts being used in the reconstruction. I won't speculate on values, because every car is different and in the end, it's up to the buyers to determine what a car is worth to them.
The parts that are being used in the new construction are not parts that can be confirmed as having come directly from the original 2049, the engine, the transmission and the differential have both casting numbers and date codes that prove otherwise. Are they original to a Cobra, possibly but nothing other than the differential is Cobra specific. Then again the 4HU Salisbury has been used in several European vehicles. The engine and the transmission are generic Ford parts without any kind of markings that would prove they came from Shelby’s shop. The engine itself is a 289, when 2049 crashed at Willow Springs in November of 1963 it had a 260 with a four barrel Autolite carburetor in it. The 260 race engine would have had numbers and stamping that would have indicate that it was a SAI built competition engine. Are there other parts related to the build that are Cobra specific, yes but those are parts that can not be confirmed to be directly related to or having come from 2049 or it’s timeframe.
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2021, 12:55 PM
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Correction required here....289 not 260 at the time of the crash. Possibility that it was originally a very early Mark I with a 260ci engine used as a SAI publicity car (I have pics that show it) and later equipped with the engine and other mods by SAI and sold to increase the number of privately campaigned cars at the time when SAI needed more cars out there to get classified as a factory team.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2021, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CompClassics View Post
The parts that are being used in the new construction are not parts that can be confirmed as having come directly from the original 2049, the engine, the transmission and the differential have both casting numbers and date codes that prove otherwise. Are they original to a Cobra, possibly but nothing other than the differential is Cobra specific. Then again the 4HU Salisbury has been used in several European vehicles. The engine and the transmission are generic Ford parts without any kind of markings that would prove they came from Shelby’s shop. The engine itself is a 289, when 2049 crashed at Willow Springs in November of 1963 it had a 260 with a four barrel Autolite carburetor in it. The 260 race engine would have had numbers and stamping that would have indicate that it was a SAI built competition engine. Are there other parts related to the build that are Cobra specific, yes but those are parts that can not be confirmed to be directly related to or having come from 2049 or it’s timeframe.
Please note that, for practical purposes, I did not specify which parts from the original 2049 are being used in the reconstruction. But yes, there are some.
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2021, 02:10 PM
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The thing for me - and I do defer to the real experts - is that for a car to be approved to bear the title of a wrecked valuable and collectible original; there should at least be some credible link (that even by a reasonable stretch) demonstrates that a salvageable portion of that car was repaired or rebuilt using some newly remanufactured parts and components. A creatively titled scratch-build or even a Kirkham chassis with some interchangeable pieces or accessory items just doesn't - to me anyway - deserve such a title and the corresponding associated value.
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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2021, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
Please note that, for practical purposes, I did not specify which parts from the original 2049 are being used in the reconstruction. But yes, there are some.
If you (SAAC) are the keepers of the keys to the legitimate CSX vault of information, why are you so closed lip about all you know? Could it be that the real truth would weaken your (SAAC) position as the "Font of all things CSX"?

Old period paper of the construction era, an old typewriter (for those of us that actually used one), a similar real invoice for proper appearance and VOILA! you have paper, now just find some old wreck with history and build a new Cobra and use the lifted title and wait for a sucker to buy it and bank millions.

End of story, IMO.
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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2021, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
If you (SAAC) are the keepers of the keys to the legitimate CSX vault of information, why are you so closed lip about all you know? Could it be that the real truth would weaken your (SAAC) position as the "Font of all things CSX"?

Old period paper of the construction era, an old typewriter (for those of us that actually used one), a similar real invoice for proper appearance and VOILA! you have paper, now just find some old wreck with history and build a new Cobra and use the lifted title and wait for a sucker to buy it and bank millions.

End of story, IMO.
No offense, but when you found out what you have on your hands was not a true Cobra frame, but that of an AC Ace, you should have quietly acknowledged this graciously. To then attack those who have kept innuendo or second hand knowledge of second hand knowledge from becoming fact, is in my eyes, just bad form.

Just my two cents

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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2021, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
Please note that, for practical purposes, I did not specify which parts from the original 2049 are being used in the reconstruction. But yes, there are some.

But nothing that can be identified as such with numbers and date codes to prove it, except a trunk lid latch.

Last edited by CompClassics; 10-24-2021 at 11:21 PM..
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
If you (SAAC) are the keepers of the keys to the legitimate CSX vault of information, why are you so closed lip about all you know? Could it be that the real truth would weaken your (SAAC) position as the "Font of all things CSX"?

Old period paper of the construction era, an old typewriter (for those of us that actually used one), a similar real invoice for proper appearance and VOILA! you have paper, now just find some old wreck with history and build a new Cobra and use the lifted title and wait for a sucker to buy it and bank millions.

End of story, IMO.
We don't claim to know everything. We simply do our best to present the facts as they line up. It's up to people to determine for themselves how relevant they may be for them. I would point out, Mr. Cowboy, that I do not have a dog in this hunt, whereas you are claiming you do. I therefore have NO interest at all in spinning the truth. Can you say the same?
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 10:29 AM
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But nothing that can be identified as such with numbers and date codes to prove it, except a trunk lid latch.
I would point out that even a trunk latch is superior to nothing whatsoever.
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mrmustang View Post
No offense, but when you found out what you have on your hands was not a true Cobra frame, but that of an AC Ace, you should have quietly acknowledged this graciously. To then attack those who have kept innuendo or second hand knowledge of second hand knowledge from becoming fact, is in my eyes, just bad form.

Just my two cents

Bill S.
I have had a noted Cobra Expert look at the frame pieces and was told that one end is ACE; however, the other end is an early Cobra with worm and sector steering. Again, let me say that our Cobra may have been a very early car, possibly even a 260ci that was used by SAI as a publicity car, I have pics that show the car with the louvered hood, black and silver racing stripe. I have looked at tens of thousands of Cobra photos and have not found but one pic with that combination of physical features.

When Shelby needed to have more cars competing against the factory team cars for promulgation, he may have converted that car that may have been early enough to have both the ACE/Cobra chassis ergo my two pieces with a 289ci engine.

I have a written statement from a racing peer that was at Willow Springs that stated he and Paul were discussing the car going back to SAI on the Monday following the race in which he was killed. Major modifications were instore to update the car to the highest competition form that was available, steering upgrade, intake and carbueration, camshaft, etc. However, it was commonplace at that time to not be able to have all the goodies that the team cars had, even though they had Fomoco part numbers on them. We were technically just a skoosh behind the team cars in racing parts, but we were becoming much more competitive against the team cars and their top rate challengers.

As an example, look at the Riverside 1 hour Race held October 13, 1963, where we raced competitively against the team cars #97, #98, #99, Allan Grant's Coventry Motors Cobra #96, GTO Ferrari #211. There are videos and still videos on file at The Henry Ford Collection, and Photographer Friedman.

Last edited by USC_COWBOY; 10-25-2021 at 10:56 AM.. Reason: errors
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
We don't claim to know everything. We simply do our best to present the facts as they line up. It's up to people to determine for themselves how relevant they may be for them. I would point out, Mr. Cowboy, that I do not have a dog in this hunt, whereas you are claiming you do. I therefore have NO interest at all in spinning the truth. Can you say the same?
Yes, I only want the truth about Paul's career and ownership, and not to allow others to usurp the car, and the story.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 12:19 PM
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Please note that, for practical purposes, I did not specify which parts from the original 2049 are being used in the reconstruction. But yes, there are some.
As keeper of the real Cobra keys, why don't you explain exactly what part(s) was used to support that chassis? Perhaps a bullet rear vision mirror!

I , for one , would like to know what was used in the reconstruction.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
I have had a noted Cobra Expert look at the frame pieces and was told that one end is ACE; however, the other end is an early Cobra with worm and sector steering.

What is the name of your "Cobra Expert"? There are those that know what they are looking at, there are some that do not, even though they advertise themselves as such because they worked for this or that company in the past. Hence the question, since I know you want to make certain you spoke with the right people, and not the wrong ones.


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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
As keeper of the real Cobra keys, why don't you explain exactly what part(s) was used to support that chassis? Perhaps a bullet rear vision mirror!

I , for one , would like to know what was used in the reconstruction.
I do know from actual court document photos (which I have) that the parts that were claimed to be from 2049 in fact were not, unless 2049 became a rack and pinion car with a 427 frame. The court awarded title to 2049 based on the % of amount of parts that were presented by the plaintiff as being from 2049 to the court. Anybody knowing anything about Cobras should have been able to see the parts presented were from a Cobra or Cobras other than 2049 and other than a worm and sector Cobra.
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Last edited by CompClassics; 10-26-2021 at 10:40 AM..
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 04:49 PM
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What is the name of your "Cobra Expert"? There are those that know what they are looking at, there are some that do not, even though they advertise themselves as such because they worked for this or that company in the past. Hence the question, since I know you want to make certain you spoke with the right people, and not the wrong ones.


Bill S.
Well known, well respected, however, I am under an NDA.

Last edited by USC_COWBOY; 10-25-2021 at 04:49 PM.. Reason: spelling
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by USC_COWBOY View Post
Well known, well respected, however, I am under an NDA.
Then your "Shelby Expert" may not be one after all, as every one of those that I personally know, would be happy to publically stand behind their highly valued reputation. A Non Disclosure Agreement for an expert witness of a product you have a vested interest in, makes me want to wash my hands for just typing this out in response.

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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 06:26 PM
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Then your "Shelby Expert" may not be one after all, as every one of those that I personally know, would be happy to publically stand behind their highly valued reputation. A Non Disclosure Agreement for an expert witness of a product you have a vested interest in, makes me want to wash my hands for just typing this out in response.

Bill S.
Yeah, the "Shelby Expert" pool is fairly small and closed. Everyone knows everyone...
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 07:02 PM
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Then your "Shelby Expert" may not be one after all, as every one of those that I personally know, would be happy to publically stand behind their highly valued reputation. A Non Disclosure Agreement for an expert witness of a product you have a vested interest in, makes me want to wash my hands for just typing this out in response.

Bill S.
Feel free to do so, I'm just digging for the truth, so far there are two cars claiming to be the Cunningham Cobra. The one in the Netherlands is a fake and has been through the court system, the poor sucker over there forked over a very large amount of cash for nothing. The other car has paper that may or may not be legitimate and did not use any identifiable part of the CSX2049 Cunningham Cobra I actually was contacted by the current owner of that chassis and invited to share with him our cars history to bolster their claims, and invited to go to the shop to see the actual car during construction, once I started asking pointed questions he got real quiet and the visit never consumated.

So now you may understand why I am on this truth seeking mission.
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2021, 07:21 PM
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So now you may understand why I am on this truth seeking mission.
Perhaps the truth has already been posted on this thread, you just don't want to accept it as you have a financial dog in this hunt, to me, this makes your interested in the truth a bit lopsided.....No offense of course, but you are not an innocent third party here, and your previous claims here show that to be. Regardless, I wish you well in your continued quest.

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